So how many have to die before they...

[EAGLE5]

The safety side is really expensive. Don't forget a fire extinguisher. You can get a Lemons/Chumpcar for $2-4k with a fully built, welded cage and a lot of development time put in. For $10k, you can get a track car that will outpace almost every twin.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

The safety side is really expensive. Don't forget a fire extinguisher. You can get a Lemons/Chumpcar for $2-4k with a fully built, welded cage and a lot of development time put in. For $10k, you can get a track car that will outpace almost every twin.

That's a good point. And $10K is basically also the amount I mentally told myself I didn't want to go past for the complete job. But I was only estimating costs in my own mind and didn't know how realistic it was. The thing is, I have so much invested in the FRS already. And I have expenses like a BBK and wheels and tires that I never would have bought and installed if I wasn't doing track events with the car. And I LIKE the car. It's so well balanced and I think it's a great car with which to build skill and experience. So i don't want to go and buy another track car where I'm going to have to learn all of it's own particular idiosyncrasies all over again. Like I said, I don't really turn wrenches. Aside from simple things. And I don't really enjoy that aspect of it. I just want to drive. So I'd rather stick with my car so long as I can work it within my budget.

[EAGLE5]

Get a dolly. Tow the car backwards. Things WILL break. That's what going fast does to cars.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

Besides, once you move up to 7,000-lbs or even 10,000-lbs capacity, nothing really comes "cheap" if it's in good condition.

Depends on your view of "good condition". If you can live without Mercedes-esque interior, you can find good tow vehicles without breaking the bank.

I bought my 2003 Expy for $3800. Spent another $1800 on tune-up, brakes, ECU Tuner and fresh fluids. Pulls my 7500lb 20' fully loaded enclosed just fine. Tow capacity is 8600lbs with W/D hitch.

I think if you had $8k you could find a very decent vehicle to pull 7500+lbs. You'd be surprised what the tow rating is on some vehicles when you include a towing package and correct diff gearing. Navigator, Expedition, Armada, Titan, Tundra, Durango etc.

You don't need a crazy big diesel pusher to tow. Stay within your tow vehicle's capacity, use a W/D hitch with sway control (like the Equalizer), keep trailer tires inflated to maximum rated pressure when cold and don't exceed 65mph. There isn't a single Trailer Tire rated for speeds above 65mph.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Depends on your view of "good condition". If you can live without Mercedes-esque interior, you can find good tow vehicles without breaking the bank.

I bought my 2003 Expy for $3800. Spent another $1800 on tune-up, brakes, ECU Tuner and fresh fluids. Pulls my 7500lb 20' fully loaded enclosed just fine. Tow capacity is 8600lbs with W/D hitch.

Granted. But as I said, having a forth vehicle would have presented a dilemma. (Technically, in actual fact, a tow vehicle would have been a 5th vehicle, but that's a long story) and I just don't have room on my property for another. Especially not a large one. So it's kind of a moot point.

So we're buying a Highlander. It's not ideal but it's a compromise. Frankly it's bigger than my wife wanted. And a bit smaller than I would have liked for towing. But it's middle ground we can both live with. And at least this way I'm getting started. One step at a time.

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

So I'm kind of resurrecting this thread in the hopes of getting an estimated answer to my own question.

My wife is buying a new vehicle to replace her Honda CRV. Her new vehicle will have a 5,000-lbs towing capacity. So there's problem number one solved.

I'd like to pick up a light weight, open aluminum trailer at the end of the season and I'm guessing I can find something 1/2 way decent in good condition for around $3,000 ~ $4,000.

So I'm now looking at my FRS and wondering about costs. I don't turn wrenches so I can't do much myself and will have to contract everything out. I realize this is a very open question with a lot of leeway. But for those who have gone through this process, how much should I reasonably expect to spend for:

- stripping the car out (This already starts a big debate as to WHAT needs to go and if I'm satisfied with everything being ripped out or if I want something that even loosely resembles the inside of a car when they're done. In general, I don't really want any loose wires sitting on the floor or gaping holes in the dash or sharp metal edges sticking out of my doors. So I'm looking for something that's done with some care and precision. But I'm not looking for a road car quality interior either. I guess I just don't want to see a car that looks like somebody went to town with a crowbar.

- installing a good quality cage that will pass a NASA or SCCA inspection

- installing 2 halo seats, 6 point harness & detachable wheel

- A decent helmet and HANS device

I'm already running a BBK, B16 coilovers, 9 inch light weight wheels, an oil cooler, header & exhaust along with upgraded studs/pads/fluids/tires. So I'm not really looking to make any changes to the car itself aside from safety.

So how much should I budget? What's the minimum I should calculate? What should I reasonably expect to pay from start to finish?

(Living in the North East)

Hey Jeff, not sure if you remember me, but I instructed you at VIR last year. Over winter I went through the process you are looking at and stripped my car and got it caged.

You can definitely save some money by stripping the interior of the car your self. I did almost all of mine (I ended up paying someone to strip the dash and HVAC system as I was running out of time before my first track event) and I was kind of surprised at how easy it was. The front seat bolts can be a pain (they are some sort of weird reverse-torx nut) and I ended up stripping one of them when I was trying to use a breaker bar. I ended up buying an impact wrench and the rest came out with no issues though.

As for what to strip, it really comes down to how far you want to go. I went pretty much all the way with my car (you can see most of it in the video I will link below) and removed all the interior, dash, and HVAC system in my quest to save weight. The funny thing is I only lost maybe 20lbs due to the weight of the cage. Anyways, if you are going for a full roll cage you will probably need to have all the interior panels, carpets, headliner, removed and you will have to at least temporarily remove the dash. Many people put the dash back in with a few minor modifications to allow the roll cage to pass through it.

I think I ended up spending close to $7,000 on safety equipment this year doing pretty much everything you described:

Roll cage (which does pass NASA specs): $2600, which included custom seat mounts because I was too tall for the standard Sparco seat mount.

Seats, harnesses, HANS, helmet, steering wheel: ~$3,300 if I remember correctly

Various labor for dash removal, seat and harness install, roll cage painting: Around $1000

All safety equipment I ordered from OG Racing and if you want contact info for my cage guy, feel free to PM me. He operates out of western MD, pretty close to Summit Point.

Here's the video of my car from this weekend at VIR:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQAMailfcmA"]Fastest Lap @ VIR - 2:11.232 - YouTube[/ame]

My strip job is probably more of the crowbar variety though

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by ja1217

Hey Jeff, not sure if you remember me, but...

Hi Josh. Of course I remember you. Nobody forgets the 'fast' guys.

This was extremely helpful as you've essentially gone through the same process and we both live (relatively) in the same region.

I'm happy to know my seat of the pants estimate wasn't too far off the mark. Considering that I'd probably like the dash put back in (I have visions going to grab the next gear and having my hand tangled up in that mess of wires) and I'd prefer to have a few custom bezels for the doors, I was probably right to estimate a bit higher. But at least I know I wasn't off in fantasy land with a maximum $10K cap from start to finish.

I'm actually going to be down at VIR in less than 2 weeks. But I won't be trying to equal that time. Just out of curiosity, is the speed off a bit on the display or did you change the gearing or were you just short shifting? I've never seen you go into 6th.

EDIT: I'm actually kind of surprised that you only dropped 20-lbs after removing all the trim and radio and AC and going with lighter seats. I guess I was just underestimating the weight of the cage. Do you notice a big difference in the way the car responds with the additional chassis bracing?

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

Hi Josh. Of course I remember you. Nobody forgets the 'fast' guys.

This was extremely helpful as you've essentially gone through the same process and we both live (relatively) in the same region.

I'm happy to know my seat of the pants estimate wasn't too far off the mark. Considering that I'd probably like the dash put back in (I have visions going to grab the next gear and having my hand tangled up in that mess of wires) and I'd prefer to have a few custom bezels for the doors, I was probably right to estimate a bit higher. But at least I know I wasn't off in fantasy land with a maximum $10K cap from start to finish.

I'm actually going to be down at VIR in less than 2 weeks. But I won't be trying to equal that time. Just out of curiosity, is the speed off a bit on the display or did you change the gearing or were you just short shifting? I've never seen you go into 6th.

EDIT: I'm actually kind of surprised that you only dropped 20-lbs after removing all the trim and radio and AC and going with lighter seats. I guess I was just underestimating the weight of the cage. Do you notice a big difference in the way the car responds with the additional chassis bracing?

Yes, I changed up the gearing on my car. Went to a 4.556 final drive ratio. Even though I went a about 1.5 seconds quicker than I could last year, I was actually down about 4-6mph on the straights. I'm think this mostly has to due with drag from my new aero parts, but having to go into 6th gear probably doesn't help.

The roll cage definitely stiffened the chassis up and the proper fixed seats really help transfer the feeling of the car moving about underneath you. I have found my self being able to anticipate the cars behavior much better than I have before and with the addition of the rear wing and splitter, the car feels more hooked up then ever before, even in the slow turns where there isn't much advantage from the aero.

As for the weight, I still have some room to go and might be able to get another 100lbs. out of it by doing things like stripping out the doors (crash supports, power windows, etc), removing unnecessary wiring, maybe replacing the bumpers with aluminum or something light (need to look into the safety aspects of this more thought). I wish I had the cash to go for carbon fiber replacement parts, but that stuff is just so expensive.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by ja1217

Yes, I changed up the gearing on my car. Went to a 4.556 final drive ratio. Even though I went a about 1.5 second

Thought so.

Originally Posted by ja1217

The roll cage definitely stiffened the chassis up and the proper fixed seats really help transfer the feeling of the car moving about underneath you.

Originally Posted by ja1217

As for the weight, I still have some room to go and might be able to get another 100lbs. out of it by doing things like...

It's a slippery slope isn't it. And if you graph it, you'll find that the potentials gains flatten out just as the costs go vertical. How much does your car weigh in? I had my car corner balanced when I had the B16 coilovers installed. And I was surprised to see with the usual empty trunk/HPDE setup, along with the Enkei RPF1s, Stop Tech BBK, header/exhaust (+oil cooler), I was actually down to 2,620-lbs (with 3/4 of a tank of gas). That didn't include me of course. I was up at Watkins Glen a few weeks ago and I was amazed how much quicker and more nimble the car felt with less unsprung weight. You realize how it affects the performance and in the back of your mind you just want dump what you can.

I'd still prefer a dash though. LOL

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

Thought so.





It's a slippery slope isn't it. And if you graph it, you'll find that the potentials gains flatten out just as the costs go vertical. How much does your car weigh in? I had my car corner balanced when I had the B16 coilovers installed. And I was surprised to see with the usual empty trunk/HPDE setup, along with the Enkei RPF1s, Stop Tech BBK, header/exhaust (+oil cooler), I was actually down to 2,620-lbs (with 3/4 of a tank of gas). That didn't include me of course. I was up at Watkins Glen a few weeks ago and I was amazed how much quicker and more nimble the car felt with less unsprung weight. You realize how it affects the performance and in the back of your mind you just want dump what you can.

I'd still prefer a dash though. LOL

I weighed in at 2780lbs with me in the car and little over a 1/4 tank of gas with me in the car. I weigh about 205lbs plus another 10-15lbs for racing gear, which would put the car at about 2560lbs or so without me in it.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Just want to add my 2 cents. Like some others on here, I've reached an awkward point where my driving is too fast for my experience level. I think it's ego but I don't really want to call it that. I associate ego at the track with not letting faster people pass which isn't me but I think it's still egotistical to want to keep pushing myself to get faster and faster to the detriment of personal safety.

On the last session of the last track day I attended, I had an unrelated passenger with me who just wanted to ride with someone quick. With him in the car, I was pushing my limits and made a mistake at one point and had a very scary off-track excursion with my car hurtling sideways through the dirt towards a tire barrier at 75mph. I only remember thinking to myself to not let go of the wheel and to hit the gas. Somehow, it helped because I managed to maneuver the car to avoid the tire barrier and land back on track safely. If contact was made, it would have certainly destroyed my car and possibly severely injured myself and/or my passenger. I shudder to think of what would happen if my passenger was hurt.

At the time it happened, I didn't think much of it but the more time passes, the more I think about it and I realize it was plain irresponsible of me to be pushing that hard in the first place much less with a passenger. Realizing this, I've decided to pass on all motorsports events while I sort out what I want to do.

Been there, done that, and destroyed the car. Fortunately, I was alone and I had the proper safety equipment. I can still recall the feeling as my helmet extended as far forward as the HANS device would allow it to (which was not far at all) and thinking "Wow, I'm really glad I got it!" This was while the car was banging off the Armco at 70 MPH.

You sound like an upper intermediate driver: capable of going pretty fast, but without the experience and skills necessary to anticipate and deal with potential problems. This is a stage most drivers go through. My own thinking on this subject is that besides experience, it is car control skills that are lacking, and that the race track is not the place to learn them.

After I ruined my car, I began an intensive effort to improve my skills. I did this at the 4-day course at the Team O'Neil Rally School, with a pro driver in the winter at Toronto Motorsports Park, with the same pro in the summer on a wet skid pad at Shannonville, and at multiple winter car control clinics put on in the Northeastern US by Audi clubs. Really, any opportunity to practice car control on a slippery surface at speeds that allow you to build your skills is worth the investment. Additionally, they are a ton of fun, and you meet good people.

While my talent for this hobby is average at best, I credit all that effort with saving me during a full-on tank slapper at T6 at the Glen in 2013. Even at the time, I didn't know what I did to save it, but save it I did, staying on-line and dropping only 12 MPH in the process. In the middle of it, when I was once again staring straight at the Armco, I had the momentary thought "Oh, nooooo, NOT AGAIN!!!"

[Scenic Driver]

Originally Posted by dradernh

and at multiple winter car control clinics put on in the Northeastern US by Audi clubs.

Just curious which ones you went to, I go to most of them every year. I bring my TT though.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Scenic Driver

Just curious which ones you went to, I go to most of them every year. I bring my TT though.

North Atlantic - http://naaclub.org/ - up at Team O'Neil. I brought the Tundra with a half-cord of hardwood in the bed a couple of times, and the wife's Volvo wagon another time. If it was closer, I'd do both of NAA's winter events every year - they're that good.

I said "clubs", but I should have said "club", as I've never made it to the NEQ events: http://www.neqclub.org/. They are a great group as well.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Been there, done that, and destroyed the car. Fortunately, I was alone and I had the proper safety equipment. I can still recall the feeling as my helmet extended as far forward as the HANS device would allow it to (which was not far at all) and thinking "Wow, I'm really glad I got it!" This was while the car was banging off the Armco at 70 MPH.

You sound like an upper intermediate driver: capable of going pretty fast, but without the experience and skills necessary to anticipate and deal with potential problems. This is a stage most drivers go through. My own thinking on this subject is that besides experience, it is car control skills that are lacking, and that the race track is not the place to learn them.

After I ruined my car, I began an intensive effort to improve my skills. I did this at the 4-day course at the Team O'Neil Rally School, with a pro driver in the winter at Toronto Motorsports Park, with the same pro in the summer on a wet skid pad at Shannonville, and at multiple winter car control clinics put on in the Northeastern US by Audi clubs. Really, any opportunity to practice car control on a slippery surface at speeds that allow you to build your skills is worth the investment. Additionally, they are a ton of fun, and you meet good people.

While my talent for this hobby is average at best, I credit all that effort with saving me during a full-on tank slapper at T6 at the Glen in 2013. Even at the time, I didn't know what I did to save it, but save it I did, staying on-line and dropping only 12 MPH in the process. In the middle of it, when I was once again staring straight at the Armco, I had the momentary thought "Oh, nooooo, NOT AGAIN!!!"

I think you hit the nail on the head that I was reaching a speed that outstrips my car control ability. I do a lot of autocross in order to improve my car control and I love wet events because I think I learn the most at them. Honestly, it's probably skills from all the autocross I do that saved me from wrecking. Still, it was a scary and humbling experience.

It's funny you mentioned Shannonville because that off track event was on turn 4 of the long track there. Going too fast caused me to track out too far and I hit the dirt on the exit with my rear wheel. A rut right there caused the rear to go up when the tire hit pavement again and I started to slide the opposite direction, right towards the tire wall.