Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

This is good to hear. This is one of my main concerns going turbo.

So are you saying you didn't notice any difference between the Vortech and your AVO, in terms of throttle modulation? (e.g. slightly stepping on throttle through turns, then putting it all the way to the floor?)

I've never driven a turbo car, so not sure what to expect... Hoping to change that.

I didn't play much throttle modulation with the Vortech, I basically floored it and modulated it for a very little amount of time.

What I meant is, having a turbo car does not mean that everytime you drive it, you are going to be breaking your neck just by driving the car. You can modulate the throttle and cruise passively without even getting on boost if you choose so. You can also press it half throttle and the boost will not build up like an animal, so again no neck snapping. Now, if you want that rush of power that will sit you back and feels awesome, you just step on it and it GOES.

[2forme]

Keep in mind that A-A intercoolers also decrease the efficiency of the stock "paper-thin" radiators as well. Consider your goal as 250whp (which is what I think this car should have come with stock). To do that on a Centri, you're looking at 10psi on the "Type B" charger design. That's a lot of pressure in an already high pressure motor. Until we can get owners past the "ZOMGZ I"M BOOOOOSTEDDDD YAYYYY" phase, we won't get a lot of credible third party testing and logs. And no, I don't consider the rosey colored reviews by Gem as being credible yet.

Summer is just around the corner and I have a feeling we'll see what effects any of these kits have on the motors.

Originally Posted by AZFA20

You said it! You will never receive that rush like you will with a turbo that is for sure but that is actually what I was looking for. I want the smooth power delivery and this provides it. Some just want the rush and the sounds but me personally my decision was made on the smooth delivery for this car. My guess as with any car I have owned in the past is that I will likely end up with a couple different forms of forced induction on this car over the years. I plan to have it for a long time.

In regard to IATs that was something I mentioned in one of my reviews. I cant remember which but I wish I could have recorded them with some data logging as the IATs are a very important part of the equation that I look into as well. I just didn't have the opportunity to do so in this situation. The problem out here is that PDs for instance, they become very heat soaked after some time with the air to water heat exchangers no matter how big a reservoir is used. The Air to Air intercoolers seem to be pretty effective. I imagine the IATs of the centri and a turbo will be pretty similar here. At this time though I do not have official numbers on that. I plan to do a considerable amount of datalogging on that exact subject though. I am pretty familiar with what average IATs are here with turbos. The entire time I have lived in AZ I have been running turbos and PDs so they all seem to run pretty close to one another in their categories. PDs are worlds hotter without doubt for IATs here in AZ. The vortech gets hot enough to cook an egg on it after a track session but we shall see what the IATs are.



This is a good point you bring up here. All the systems out there will have pretty normal modulation to stock if you choose to just modulate. The best control is your foot for sure. These reviews that I make are based on WOT delivery of power.

[AZFA20]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Keep in mind that A-A intercoolers also decrease the efficiency of the stock "paper-thin" radiators as well. Consider your goal as 250whp (which is what I think this car should have come with stock). To do that on a Centri, you're looking at 10psi on the "Type B" charger design. That's a lot of pressure in an already high pressure motor. Until we can get owners past the "ZOMGZ I"M BOOOOOSTEDDDD YAYYYY" phase, we won't get a lot of credible third party testing and logs. And no, I don't consider the rosey colored reviews by Gem as being credible yet.

Summer is just around the corner and I have a feeling we'll see what effects any of these kits have on the motors.

I agree about the radiator and A-A intercoolers and I didn't mention anything about the radiator because personally I think the stock radiator is weak sauce so upgrade should be priority for anyone going forced induction. Even by limiting air flow with an A-A, more fin surface area would be beneficial.

As far as the manifold pressure I am not too concerned with it because manifold pressure is only part of the overall equation. I do understand where you are coming from though. The static pressure is pretty high for sure but it really comes down to flow and efficiency of the compressor at those pressures. On top of that the actual effective compression ratio during TDC and full fuel injection. This is a whole other topic that again appeals to me with this particular method of forced induction on this particular engine for longevity. I need to dig up the Ver 2 compressor maps again to see where this setup is sitting on the efficiency islands at these pressures and rpm.

Gradual boost creates gradual cylinder pressure increase and the less shock you create the better off the stock guts should theoretically hold up over time. The FA20 has already shown to handle pretty ridiculous pressures/forces. Me personally I am not scared to blow an engine up but for the majority of owners this is a serious factor to consider. If you can apply the power with a little more gentle manner well it certainly can't hurt. To your point though just how efficiently is it actually doing it though......

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by AZFA20

I think you may be confused about what I am talking about. No worries though. The wastegate has nothing to do with surge protection. The BOV does all of that work. The wastegate is used to bleed off over pressure. When using a wastegate on a centri you are running a much smaller pulley to produce way more boost than intended to use. The wastegate then bleeds that over pressure off in order to achieve a set pressure except MUCH sooner than you otherwise would.

Yes, it is used to remove excessive pressure and likewise with the BOV and Which is why in certain setups, people just use the wastegate/screamer pipes to control their boost levels, regardless if it is surge or overboosting at given rpm. I was trying to demonstrate an issue which only exists for centri chargers due to that fact that it is belt driven.

It was just that your original comment was about the bypass valve (DV or BOV) for the Twinscrew which isn't a requirement due to it's placement and the instant torque. Unlike the centri, you do not need to use a smaller pulley to give you low end torque then use a wastegate to keep the top end boost down. You are also introducing more wasted heat and parasitic loss as the charger is now running higher rpm for no gain. Not only that, the centri actually needs the bypass valve like a turbo as demonstrated earlier (with a short path on the outlet, a wastegated setup can achieve the same although the vortech does include a bypass as well). All Gem has done is forcing it to behave like a twinscrew and having to bandaid all the shortfalls of the centri.

The above contended comment was also referenced to the supposed "on-off" nature of twinscrew similar to the turbo. Both of these aren't exactly correct.

[AZFA20]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Yes, it is used to remove excessive pressure and likewise with the BOV and Which is why in certain setups, people just use the wastegate/screamer pipes to control their boost levels, regardless if it is surge or overboosting at given rpm. I was trying to demonstrate an issue which only exists for centri chargers due to that fact that it is belt driven.

It was just that your original comment was about the bypass valve (DV or BOV) for the Twinscrew which isn't a requirement due to it's placement and the instant torque. Unlike the centri, you do not need to use a smaller pulley to give you low end torque then use a wastegate to keep the top end boost down. You are also introducing more wasted heat and parasitic loss as the charger is now running higher rpm for no gain. Not only that, the centri actually needs the bypass valve like a turbo as demonstrated earlier (with a short path on the outlet, a wastegated setup can achieve the same). All Gem has done is forcing it to behave like a twinscrew and having to bandaid all the shortfalls of the centri.

The above contended comment was also referenced to the supposed "on-off" nature of twinscrew similar to the turbo. Both of these aren't exactly correct.

I understand where you are coming from now that you have explained what your thoughts were. I think really what has happened here though is that you read too deep into my use of the words "on/off". I can see where the confusion may have come from hence why I reiterated that I didn't mean it in the literal sense. Again I am not sure if perhaps there may be some confusion by what I meant because a bypass valve on a PD is not even used for the same purpose as it is on a centri. On a PD it is literally bypassing air around the screws or rotors in a roots. Mechanically it is more similar to an internal wastegate than a bov, recirc, or bypass. It may be that your terminology differs from ours and that two different things happen to be called the same thing.

I am not sure I agree that running a wastegated setup on a centri is necessarily a band-aid but rather a way to manipulate its intended function to achieve bits of character that other forced induction methods provide while maintaining the bits unique to the centri. No matter how you slice it turbos will never be centris nor PDs or vise versa no matter how you compare them but just as anything we as tuners find ways to squeeze power out of everything no matter how we find a way to do it. We tinker by nature. The excess heat generated really only becomes a problem if you really spin the centri out of its RPM range. You are without a doubt working the centri harder which in turn creates heat but this is where you have to manipulate with moderation. There is one thing I think we can all agree on and that is that all three methods (4 if you wanna add nitrous into the mix) of forced induction most commonly used provide unique characteristics that are accompanied by inherent pros and cons. There is always a way to manipulate them and this is where you can blur the lines a little.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by AZFA20

There is one thing I think we can all agree on and that is that all three methods (4 if you wanna add nitrous into the mix) of forced induction most commonly used provide unique characteristics that are accompanied by inherent pros and cons. There is always a way to manipulate them and this is where you can blur the lines a little.

Yes, to get the low down torque of the twinscrew:
Centri - small pulley
Turbo - antilag
Both of these will require wastegate for boost control.

[AZFA20]

I get the feeling you are a proponent of screw PDs I am too to be honest. I just hate having to have a 2 gallon heat exchanger reservoir and a bag of ice everywhere I go :happy0180: Now we just need to figure out how to implement a wastegate into nitrous

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by AZFA20

I get the feeling you are a proponent of screw PDs I am too to be honest. I just hate having to have a 2 gallon heat exchanger reservoir and a bag of ice everywhere I go :happy0180: Now we just need to figure out how to implement a wastegate into nitrous

Lol, not sure about that. I went through all this for my 4agze and it just didn't technically stack up. In any case, more boost everywhere is always fun

Btw, going to a tiny lithium battery, you've come with space and still reduce weight for a reservoir and it would only be a few degrees above ambient even if you thrash it unlike an air to air setup. And yes, you can further use ice to drop it to below ambient for power runs/drag/timeattack, something you can't do with air to air.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Summer is just around the corner and I have a feeling we'll see what effects any of these kits have on the motors.

I will be honest and state that I was in stop and go traffic in around 88F temps on my way home from work yesterday with the A/C on and the coolant temps did start to rise higher than I had ever seen. They were just below the 3/4 line. I was starting to look for an exit strategy, and then traffic finally opened up and the temps went right back down. This is on a Full Blown kit with the OEM radiator and the aftermarket slim dual electric fans running.

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I will be honest and state that I was in stop and go traffic in around 88F temps on my way home from work yesterday with the A/C on and the coolant temps did start to rise higher than I had ever seen. They were just below the 3/4 line. I was starting to look for an exit strategy, and then traffic finally opened up and the temps went right back down. This is on a Full Blown kit with the OEM radiator and the aftermarket slim dual electric fans running.

This post scared me until you said slim fans. I live in Arizona and am about to go boosted. Was there a reason for the slim fans? And are you running a shroud?

[King Tut]

The Full Blown turbo kit turbo mounting does not allow for the OEM fans and shroud. I am not running a shroud currently, but would like to fab one up and go with a thicker radiator at the same time.

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

Do you know what kind of fans they are? Ive seen quite a difference in the range of quality in aftermarket fans.

[King Tut]

They were no namers, but I have also thought about getting better ones and possibly adding pushers in front of the A/C condensor as well. Other thoughts were to modify the OEM fan shroud to work with the slim fans.

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Jesse@JDLAutodesign

Do you know what kind of fans they are? Ive seen quite a difference in the range of quality in aftermarket fans.

This. People don't realize that so many slim fans reduce performance. And are there to ideally make space not improve efficiency.

Originally Posted by King Tut

They were no namers, but I have also thought about getting better ones and possibly adding pushers in front of the A/C condensor as well. Other thoughts were to modify the OEM fan shroud to work with the slim fans.

Yeah shroud should help. If Cfm is struggling some pushers might help. FMIC just kill on cooling with reduced Cfm and increased atmospheric temperature.