Truths and Myths about Materials and Aerodynamics

[SubieNate]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I am not being negative, just real. The higher end esoteric performance parts using composites and proper engineering are a small fortune, because they are limited production pieces. You want lightness, it needs to be engineered in from the ground up, not reverse. You don't see sports cars designed with a steel frame and then strapping carbon fiber on every panel.

I would love to see higher end options but, 99.9% of us are not competing in professional motorsports there is virtually no need or market for it. I never said don't engineer something better or push the envelope.

Law of diminishing returns. Dry carbon hood, $3000 vs $700 aluminum hood. This is the base for this thread. We are talking about a 25k car that makes 160HP at the wheels. Thats less/same as a Veloster Turbo and Civic Si. You can drop 10k on this car in esoteric parts, or even a Civic. At the end of the day its the same car with a ton of expensive parts bolted on in the end it's not going to matter I promise you. You can bring a trailer with full works garage, engineer, mechanic to the track with you, money can buy you speed, there is always someone who has more and has more to prove.

The composites stuff in this thread is mostly academic. I've yet to see a carbon hood at a reasonable price that weighs less than the stock one so why bother? Aluminum is a darn fine material for panels.

On the steel frame/carbon panels thing-there are a number of super car level cars that have a steel backbone with carbon panels to shave weight while reducing the overall cost of the car. Many Porsches and M cars use carbon panels with a steel or aluminum frame underneath. There are some examples of high performance cars (even open wheeled racers) that are basically steel spaceframes with a carbon skin. The Edge aerobatic aircraft is also constructed in this method.

I understand what you're getting at, but you're assuming that the intrinsic motivation is 100% for the performance gain. Some of us like things that are well thought out and engineered. Some of us are willing to pay a premium for that, even if the performance gain is small. I'd personally like to shave a good amount of weight off the front of the car if possible, and every little bit counts. Lighter hollow swaybar, aluminum arms, light brakes, light wheels, light battery (or relocation), lightweight bumper beam (JDM spec maybe? I don't really trust the "drift bars" on the street), lighter aluminum radiator, who knows how far we could take it. Cost effective? Probably not. Fun? You bet.

Nathan

[plucas]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Kind of OT, but if anyone is interested in old-timey 50's formula and sports car racing stories, All But My Life by Sir Stirling Moss is a heck of a read. Lots of good stuff in that book.

Earl, does Hanchagroup have a facebook?

- Andy

Yes we do

https://www.facebook.com/HanchaGroup

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hancha Group

Truth. Everything you read on the internet is FACT. lol

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We hold the majority of the local NA lap time records for the FR-S/BRZ. You're welcome to compare our times to the NASA TTD records for the respective tracks. We fit well into TTD with plenty of points to spare.

Is the car FAST? No. Is it quick for what it is? Most definitely.

Here's an example. I'm sure you're familiar with Emilio Cervantes. Our BRZ is faster than the FR-S he was developing with Matt Andrews. He's definitely a faster driver than I am far more established, and certainly not SECONDS slower than me. The only conclusion we can reach is that our car has better parts. Both cars were set up fairly well.


We're within a second of Crawford's turbo BRZ time at Buttonwillow... and they had Bill Caswell driving. I'm certainly not faster than a guy that podiumed at a WRC event.

Racing is a funny thing, we had similar discussions in other threads about it. Too many variables to even compare drivers, vs parts vs. weather, setup etc. The fact is in your situation, you are comfortable and confident in your setup you know the home tracks you run on better than most and is also a huge advantage when you start tuning your suspension.

I had a similar situation in karting last year, got to run a series with Sebastien Bourdais. I was able to run faster, in practice, qualifying and race pace. We were in spec karts, one of the reasons was he had not run that track in 4 years, and I had been running it 4x a month. My clear advantage was comfort, confidence and experience that was all it took. Put him in a few more races and there is no way I could have matched him after he gained confidence.

I plan on taking you up on your offer to come race out there, not to even compete but to learn, because I know that I cannot match you experience level you have on Willow Springs or your seat time. No point pretending.
But let's say we both did an autox out there chances are I would probably have a 1 second advantage than you on per run, nothing to do with your driving ability at all, it's what you are used to.

So to make a round about, the parts that "make" the difference namely on this car that warrant the extra expense are for those like yourself, in a very specific repeatable discipline where you can now remove the driver from the variables. Will Robispec LCA arms make you faster? I can bet they would.

Would it make the other 99.9% of FR-S/BRZ owners faster, 99.9% chance of not likely.

I have heard Cervantes name dropped by spec miata guys, have no followed him though or know too much about him. Its probably a regional thing too.

Originally Posted by Hancha Group

Truth. Everything you read on the internet is FACT. lol

My 500HP Turbo FR-S will never blow up. I welded the intake manifold.

Originally Posted by SubieNate

The composites stuff in this thread is mostly academic. I've yet to see a carbon hood at a reasonable price that weighs less than the stock one so why bother? Aluminum is a darn fine material for panels.

On the steel frame/carbon panels thing-there are a number of super car level cars that have a steel backbone with carbon panels to shave weight while reducing the overall cost of the car. Many Porsches and M cars use carbon panels with a steel or aluminum frame underneath. There are some examples of high performance cars (even open wheeled racers) that are basically steel spaceframes with a carbon skin. The Edge aerobatic aircraft is also constructed in this method.

I understand what you're getting at, but you're assuming that the intrinsic motivation is 100% for the performance gain. Some of us like things that are well thought out and engineered. Some of us are willing to pay a premium for that, even if the performance gain is small. I'd personally like to shave a good amount of weight off the front of the car if possible, and every little bit counts. Lighter hollow swaybar, aluminum arms, light brakes, light wheels, light battery (or relocation), lightweight bumper beam (JDM spec maybe? I don't really trust the "drift bars" on the street), lighter aluminum radiator, who knows how far we could take it. Cost effective? Probably not. Fun? You bet.

Nathan

I get what you are saying believe me, I am the asshole that spent $230 on a catch can. And there are things I believe in even in this thread like Hancha's potential Front ARB endlinks. Why? Because the oem style links will rust, and become un-removable.

But will I pay $200 for a pair of end links when when Strano bar was only $190? NO WAY.

That's what I am talking about with this car. And my point with Mike.
It's not to be negative or to just stir the pot. It's just to say, we all want parts but in some cases, actually most all, the people on this website, don't need Formula 1 designed underbody aero trays and difusers, or dry carbon motor mounts and subframe braces. Or NASA inspired gold foil heat rejection shields on every surface of the transmission tunnel.

What we need is tested (CSG Mike, Robispec etc), affordable pieces that legitimately improve on the OEM design that don't cost 4x more than the OEM piece. I don't care if they are designed with woven pig feces, superman's hair, or steel mined from mars. If they work, tested by people who use the car, developed for the car you have my money if it will make a tangible difference for most applications.

[CSG Mike]

If it's available, we'll test it ^_^

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by Hancha Group

Truth. Everything you read on the internet is FACT. lol

bonjour!

[fatoni]

speaking of emillio
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0Yt-MtCDbDQ"]NASA 2012 Survive the 25 - YouTube[/ame]

[Dezoris]

enjoyed that video thanks!

[nix]

@Hachiroku this thread is another example of why we need a 'best of' sub forum to cut through the bs.

Hopefully not shifting the threads but just indexing/stickying/linking to the subforum they actually sit on.

It's great to see different vendors chipping in keep it up boys.

[EarlQHan]

Origin Story: Does it matter where it's made? Know what you're paying for

The short answer: no. People automatically assume if it's Swiss made, it's going to be high precision, and if it's Chinese made, it's automatically cheap. It doesn't matter if it's made in America or in Zambia. But like almost everything else in life, things are not black and white.

To address the elephant in the room, China made does not necessarily mean cheap, but the reason people do business with China is to get things made cheaply. If we wanted, we could get Part A made in China identical to a piece made in Germany. However, then the cost savings would not make it worth doing business in China. We then want things made cheaper, so we ask China to cheapen the product, so they comply. Take a lamp for example. You start with a floor lamp, then you send it off to China, they give you a floor lamp. But then you keep telling them to make it cheaper, so they make it smaller, and this process keeps repeating until you end up with a flashlight. Then you complain about how it's not what you originally wanted, even though China kept up with your every request. Many people make the mistake thinking that China is not a capitalist nation, but in many ways, they are the most capitalistic nation in the world. Money trumps any sort of regulation. If they think they can cheapen the design to save some money on their end, they will do so. That is why you need someone to quality check the product to keep a watchful eye. This is why it is hard to get consistency because the bottom line is everything.

Does this mean you should not buy from China? No, and frankly, there's no way to avoid it. China has the capabilities to create anything on par with any other nation. Almost all complex assemblies have at least one component made in China. This means from Apple to the ZR1, it has something from China. Those fancy magnetorheological dampers GM uses? Delphi sold that patent to Beijing West so those all come from China. It means you should be aware of how certain products are made when shopping a specific brand so you know where that price discrepancy is coming from.

The main components that go into the cost of a product: research and development, materials, machine time, and labor. Another factor that often gets overlooked is overhead. So if China copies a design (which they often do), they avoid R&D costs and have lower labor rates, so they can pump out the same part for a lower cost. But, if they're willing to skimp there, you can be assured, they will likely skimp on material and machine time (tolerances). That is why you end up with an inferior part. So if you are buying something original from China, it may not be bad, but if you are buying a knock-off, you are likely getting something inferior.

To give you an idea how much things actually cost, you have to think from a business point of view. Typically, a discount foreign brand that sells to distributors who sell to dealers who sell to consumers, there's a 300% markup. So, if something costs $1000 to buy, it costs less than $333 to make (because they all need to make money along the distribution chain and the product still needs to be shipped to your country and have duties and taxes paid). High quality brands typically deal with smaller margins since the profit in dollars is still the same. So let's say 200%. If something costs $3000, it costs less than $1500 to make. So that price gap is quite large. The cost of the quality brand could be greater than the retail of the value brand, and that buys you a lot of quality. For companies that sell direct, that markup is typically much smaller and their margin depends on their business model.

Now people may complain about that, but a business has to make money. The aftermarket is an imperfect market and that is why there are so many options available, to best suit a certain market segment. So being China made isn't necessarily a bad thing, but look at what the brand is built on and you'll have an idea of how high or low the quality really is.

Personally, I am a proud (and sometimes wrongfully arrogant) American. I am patriotic so I prefer to do my business (personal and professional) with American companies. Our economy is not what it once was, I would like to see it get back. However, in no way do I think America is the gold standard. To quote Neil deGrasse Tyson (The "watchout we got a badass over here" meme guy), "The economic battle-cry of 'Buy American' should instead be 'Buy the Best', thereby compelling Americans to make the best."

So, to sum it up, buy the best. We all have budgets, but really pay attention and research so you can buy the best product in your price range. If the price difference is only a few percent (don't think in dollars) but the quality and reputation is vastly different, save up that extra money and go with the better brand. I promise you it will be worth it.