Truths and Myths about Materials and Aerodynamics

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The chassis is a bit special. Totally serious. Makes IS-F guys cry.

I was talking about materials. I agree chassis design is the magic of this car.

[SubieNate]

@Dezoris-Here's my piece. Do you have a need to be negative all the time or something? If these guys want to put real R&D into components then what's it to you? If it pushes their products out of your pricerange? Don't buy them. End of story. There's no need to school them on the economics of the aftermarket industry. I'm sure they're very aware of everything you're talking about. I for one find their threads very interesting and they usually spark enlightening discussion. I figure that's reason enough to post them.

Not being a Lotus, there is more room for improvement/weight savings all around the car. So why not take advantage of that?

[SkullWorks]

If nothing else the "adding lightness" aspect of advanced materials engineering pays huge dividends in a production chassis such as ours.

I'm sorry to hear that you expected your $20k to grow somehow by "investing" in motorsports, don't be jaded, this is a hobby, a hobby we all take far too seriously and that's half the fun, fast cars deserve respect so you have to take it seriously...none of us will get rich playing with cars, but it's cheaper than hookers and blow...and you can post the videos on the youtubes afterward too...

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I
If we started with a chassis from someone like Lotus, purpose built, I might be a bit more excited for advanced engineering for this car.

Way more room for improvement with this chassis, than one that's already been pushed closer to the edge of the design envelope.

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Most anyone here with experience will tell you, does not matter what you spend on motorsports, sometimes less is more.

The only way to come out of motorsports with a small amount of money, is to start with a large amount of money.

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

If nothing else the "adding lightness" aspect of advanced materials engineering pays huge dividends in a production chassis such as ours.

The down side, is that "adding lightness" is typically the most expensive performance improvement you can make.

[ayau]

[QUOTE]=SkullWorks;893166]If nothing else the "adding lightness" aspect of advanced materials engineering pays huge dividends in a production chassis such as ours.

I'm sorry to hear that you expected your $20k to grow somehow by "investing" in motorsports, don't be jaded, this is a hobby, a hobby we all take far too seriously and that's half the fun, fast cars deserve respect so you have to take it seriously...none of us will get rich playing with cars, but it's cheaper than hookers and blow...and you can post the videos on the youtubes afterward too...[/QUOTE]

LOL

[Racecomp Engineering]

Kind of OT, but if anyone is interested in old-timey 50's formula and sports car racing stories, All But My Life by Sir Stirling Moss is a heck of a read. Lots of good stuff in that book.

Earl, does Hanchagroup have a facebook?

- Andy

[EarlQHan]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

I have to speak my peace on this issue.

To be successful in sales you rarely need the best products or innovative engineering. Mass market consumers don't care about all the technical details, they just want value and simplicity. The esoteric engineering crowd are the 5% who want all of this. Even then only about 1% put their money where their mouth is. On this site there are only a hand full of guys who will go balls out designing and testing a better mouse trap and most of them have products to sell.

As all of this pertains to the FR-S/BRZ these are mass produced cars with standard issue stamped/cast steel everything. Not one aluminum suspension component. Material wise it's about as exotic as a Chevy Aveo.

If we started with a chassis from someone like Lotus, purpose built, I might be a bit more excited for advanced engineering for this car.

But really after following progress on most of the fastest guys on here, they don't need anything more than standard issue materials.

Over the past 5 years I have spent over 20k on karting, cars and projects.
The pay off?

A $60 Ikea display case filled with 40$ worth of Chinese made trophies.
Most anyone here with experience will tell you, does not matter what you spend on motorsports, sometimes less is more.

You're entitled to your own opinion. And for the most part you're right. But there's a reason why Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Penske, Ganassi have so many wins: $. It's not necessarily about the money you spend, but how you spend it. But a lot of the time, you need to spend a lot on the right pieces (parts, engineers, drivers, etc.)

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by SubieNate

@Dezoris-Here's my piece. Do you have a need to be negative all the time or something? If these guys want to put real R&D into components then what's it to you? If it pushes their products out of your pricerange? Don't buy them. End of story.

Not being a Lotus, there is more room for improvement/weight savings all around the car. So why not take advantage of that?

I am not being negative, just real. The higher end esoteric performance parts using composites and proper engineering are a small fortune, because they are limited production pieces. You want lightness, it needs to be engineered in from the ground up, not reverse. You don't see sports cars designed with a steel frame and then strapping carbon fiber on every panel.

I would love to see higher end options but, 99.9% of us are not competing in professional motorsports there is virtually no need or market for it. I never said don't engineer something better or push the envelope.

I guess what is hard to convey on the internet is, experience. Even the guys with the best parts strapped onto his car don't mean much, I promise you that. Because at this level and with this car it's almost all about driver.

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

If nothing else the "adding lightness" aspect of advanced materials engineering pays huge dividends in a production chassis such as ours.

I'm sorry to hear that you expected your $20k to grow somehow by "investing" in motorsports, don't be jaded, this is a hobby, a hobby we all take far too seriously and that's half the fun, fast cars deserve respect so you have to take it seriously...none of us will get rich playing with cars, but it's cheaper than hookers and blow...and you can post the videos on the youtubes afterward too...

Originally Posted by EarlQHan

You're entitled to your own opinion. And for the most part you're right. But there's a reason why Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Penske, Ganassi have so many wins: $. It's not necessarily about the money you spend, but how you spend it. But a lot of the time, you need to spend a lot on the right pieces (parts, engineers, drivers, etc.)

Law of diminishing returns. Dry carbon hood, $3000 vs $700 aluminum hood. This is the base for this thread. We are talking about a 25k car that makes 160HP at the wheels. Thats less/same as a Veloster Turbo and Civic Si. You can drop 10k on this car in esoteric parts, or even a Civic. At the end of the day its the same car with a ton of expensive parts bolted on in the end it's not going to matter I promise you. You can bring a trailer with full works garage, engineer, mechanic to the track with you, money can buy you speed, there is always someone who has more and has more to prove.

This car is not Redbull Renault or Mercedes AMG, it's not even near a Porsche, BMW or Lotus. And that's partly what makes the car great, it's affordable, obtainable and cheaply made so having fun and making improvements don't need or have to cost a lot.

[CSG Mike]

I don't know... it's all about finding the right parts.

Look at our BRZ. It's quick. I'm certainly not the fastest driver around. Experienced? Sure, but nowhere near top tier level. Yet, we're setting records. It's the parts.

[Dezoris]

BTW I am not against anyone emptying their wallet, been there done it. I am doing it now for a project, just stating the obvious from experience.
And yes that means nothing on the internet I know because everyone is an expert at everything

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I don't know... it's all about finding the right parts.

Look at our BRZ. It's quick. I'm certainly not the fastest driver around. Experienced? Sure, but nowhere near top tier level. Yet, we're setting records. It's the parts.

What kind of records are you setting? I mean define what that really means?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

What kind of records are you setting? I mean define what that really means?

We hold the majority of the local NA lap time records for the FR-S/BRZ. You're welcome to compare our times to the NASA TTD records for the respective tracks. We fit well into TTD with plenty of points to spare.

Is the car FAST? No. Is it quick for what it is? Most definitely.

Here's an example. I'm sure you're familiar with Emilio Cervantes. Our BRZ is faster than the FR-S he was developing with Matt Andrews. He's definitely a faster driver than I am far more established, and certainly not SECONDS slower than me. The only conclusion we can reach is that our car has better parts. Both cars were set up fairly well.


We're within a second of Crawford's turbo BRZ time at Buttonwillow... and they had Bill Caswell driving. I'm certainly not faster than a guy that podiumed at a WRC event.

[Hancha Group]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

BTW I am not against anyone emptying their wallet, been there done it. I am doing it now for a project, just stating the obvious from experience.
And yes that means nothing on the internet I know because everyone is an expert at everything

Truth. Everything you read on the internet is FACT. lol