Truths and Myths about Materials and Aerodynamics

[naikaidriver]

This is the single, best read I have EVER had on a car forum!

Bravo guys! Thanks for taking the time to do this!

Scott

[Huehuecoyotl]

Thanks for the update and the new thread: I get that you want to educate the forum but I also dont like the smoke and mirrors inherent to these topics with which your debut of your skillset seems to accompany. Thats not aimed squarely at you but at the industry. Its not like we're dealing with easton tubing and known controlled sourced materials, this is stuff you guys are laying up. "Proprietary alloys." and such...

I'm not gonna over pollute your thread, so I will say this short ans sweetly as i can and go:

but want to draw a few points before I take leave, and wont be subscribing, and am not asking you to respond, rather just commenting as I pass by your thread here..

No one who sells composites ever talks about microfractures in CF, and I dont see it far on the horizon with your direction for us to see more CF parts, drive shafts, links, arms etc. Why arent any on my car?

most folks who are familiar with GMP will ask about what production run interval tests are done, are you using Oscillatory Shear Test Method for your layups? are your production and tests facilities ISO TC 61/SC 13 compliant? No then, What does you expounding out of context mean for us, besides wanting to show your area of schooling? are your labs ASTM certified? then what does your data mean to me if I do know what your talking about?

Shall we examine Specimen geometry, Void content, Fibre orientation, Fibre randomness,Lay up stacking sequence,Composite swelling,degree of disbonding between matrix and fibres as MOL's are reached, all can have huge variance between vendors and even between runs, so far, what you have been sharing with us is doing little but alluding to me to be very careful about telling fact from marketing with any new upstart in your arena seems vague when I get granular.

SO many different results are obtained when different fillers and resins are used, heck I dont know the difference in what I am buying if its made with Fibril or Ketjenblack EC-600 JD carbon black or if maybe you should be using Graphene Nanoplatelets or something else. I cant profess to know, or want to knowm so sometimes thats why sticking with tried and true works for me, alloys and composites aside. Steel, superman, ol skool. 4130 man.

What Mechanical Tensile Property Test Method do you use to create the models and data using your proprietary alloys? I guess I'm dumb, because to me, alot of what you have shared thus far can be meaningless without understanding the method, its validation and variances in data collection in real world - you are doing RLDA testing arent you?

I like you ability to model, but you can bet that liability control is in here-can you share what you are collecting there with regards to the camber arm and toe links RLDA?

I have confidence this is where I need to make my decision on whose control arms to buy and whose parts to go with, and I guess I just wanted to comment that sometimes the guy who you may think is in a shed, is actually doing it the way thats not up for debate, and may just happen to be much further ahead with regards to real world product development, and using tried and try materials can lead to in tried and true results. I guess why I end up buying parts and making a build that I feel pretty comfy recommending to others, as a non vendor, with zero real interest in what vendors sell their product. If i like your stuff, your approach and your data, I tell you, and if I have doubts and see less clearly I share that too, its never meant with targeting anyone or being less than transparent. I represent the communities interests only with regards to my intentions and want that to be clear.

I know wall thickness, we all know alcoa, we all know tubing specs, and these are far more standardized materials and technologies when it comes down to me aiming for a wall of tires at 100mph and making a 120degree turn after standing on the brakes and praying each time I go 'round that corner. Knowing what I have in a more tangible fashion allows me to see soundness of engineering more clearly, not knowing your labs, certifications and manufacturing compliance, validation, QA,QC,and TQM methods and Flexural Test Results of your layups and materials used in designing the aerospace technology you plan to offer us and eventually sell here. I'm a skeptic, sorry.

I feel far more confident with my life on the steel stuff, vs the alloys & composites, when approaching those limits.
It concerns me greatly that hancha doesnt own this car...correct me if I am wrong, but your blog suggests you have a model 86 to test with, I try to only shop with vendors who are committed enough to OWN the car they are developing for when its an ongoing development process/project. Not like we bolt on a proven koni damper and we are done on when we are crafting suspension parts that are being man monkey made or computer made to bear load. do you own one of these cars EarlQ? I didnt see any pics anywhere. customer and 'partner' cars really do not count in my book...

/rant off and goodbye, thanks for letting me stop by.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by EarlQHan

NO ONE is immune to pros/cons of designs and materials. I am not going to discuss or defend our products in this thread, that is not the intention of this thread. If you'd like to know more, just PM me or ask in one of our vendor account threads. I have not given full disclosure, but I have not lied about anything. I have just said, I cannot tell you.

I do not own a BRZ/FR-S, but I am a long time Subaru owner. Over 14 years, I've had 6. Are you familiar with the intricacies and quirks of Subaru suspensions? Do you know exactly what's different on the BRZ/FR-S over the GRB, which the suspension was derived from? Do you know how the GRB platform was developed off the BP platform and how they changed the suspension there? Do you know the interchangeability between parts from all the Subaru models since 1995?

Have you ever worked in this industry? Do you know how a good design will immediately be ripped off and outsourced so protecting intellectual property is your life blood?

The beauty of science is that it doesn't matter what your opinion is or what my opinion is, science is going to find the right answer. If computer simulation means nothing, why does every reputable engineering firm on the planet use it? Let's be real here, math, science, and computer simulations got man to the moon. Do you think they had the opportunity to test it in real life before they got there? Do you think any of us can really top that? It is PROOF that simulations work. Formula 1 teams rely heavily on CFD and driving simulators, do you think they do it because they want to?

So do you think a poorly designed part with sturdy materials is actually superior to a well designed part with equally sturdy materials? Just because one is iron based and one is aluminum based? If you are familiar with Subarus, you'll know the STI from 04-06 had aluminum suspension arms. The WRX had steel ones. So you're telling me you'd still prefer the steel WRX arms over the aluminum STI arms? Both made by the same company, designed by the same people, but you'd still feel safer with the steel ones? Do you think they're actually safer too? Which one do you think was meant for track abuse, because it's not the steel one.

I think I'll prove you wrong about my steel camber arms that are (quote) "poorly designed" by my "shed vendor"(Thats two times man, shame shame I wasnt gonna reply to your post, but your sounding pretty desperate and heck, you took another blow? so I thought I may as well cash in ..LOL), why dont we check back in a bit after I have had my arms and tracked them all summer long, and maybe by then you will have potentially brought your product(s) to market. Like I said no one has knocked your design, and its in poor taste to see one vendor jab at anothers design. I know that racer X is reading this thread, and have respect that he has not jabbed back at your design, or posting style...

I'd tell you to meet at the track to test, but since you dont have the car, I think you will be limited by what the model lets you design for until you get yourself rather your parts on a testcar to the track I have to keep my reservations.

maybe I will just look forward to meeting you if you come out to an event where you can see others cars out side the simulator in action.

Looking forward to seeing you, your car(s) and alum product(s) trackside.

Till then, I'm gonna go with the vendor who owns the car, tracks it and builds real world suspensions not models, collects real world load data, for it. You post reveals you are in a simulator mindset, and that you do not have the means to capture real world load data, like Racer X is doing, something the stance targeting vendors are not doing either. At this point for the OP the recommendation from me is Cusco, or Racerx as i have elected, and I am not a vendor, so you may wanna consider that trying to sell yourself so hard may not be the best strategy.

Allows me to sleep best at night that day before I track knowing real world teste were done and I am not the 1st ginea pig. Its too bad, cause as a guy who just got
-toe links
-upper control arms
-lower camber arms
shipping to me in the flesh as we speak, its hard to give the same credit to your firm, tho valiant, you appear to be overshooting the target with design and are gonna likely deliver late and at a cost that like your wing, may be prohibitive.

I can hope you can appreciate my need to keep things real and realistic. Based on your graduating in December 2012, I bet your not 40 years old like me, so this aint my 1st rodeo-sorry pal. Dont sound like you have a whole lot of experience either, and I will pass on answering the 20 questions you felt the need to end your post in. I'm not selling product, I'm not a vendor, I dont need to answer your questions, or prove manufacturing compliance, skill or competency, fortunately that is your burden here.

Thanks for your reply, surely you will succeed around here. There are folks who will be ready to pay your development costs, I'm sure.
I've seen enough post and graph, when you have actual, not virtual, product available for test we will talk again if it fits the markets needs and pricepoints
good luck wherever you are earl, not sure where "nowhere" is. I'm s going somewhere with my build, and its not looking like Hancha Group's site nor your antagonistic posts on our forum is doing it for me. I'm the 'customer'. At present, not one of yours. But at present, then again, you have zero products and zero clients on our forum, and 86 posts. Lucky number as of this writing. Lets hope your offerings to our community are as superior as you come across as a vendor.

wishing you the best,
Gem

[s2d4]

Gem, watch it.
you are putting words in his mouth instead of answering his questions, questions that were valid too.

Stop forcing your opinions down his throat if it differs to yours.
Let him engineer the design and do the simulations he wants.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

Thanks for your reply, surely you will succeed around here. There are folks who will be ready to pay your development costs, I'm sure.
I've seen enough post and graph, when you have actual, not virtual, product available for test we will talk again if it fits the markets needs and pricepoints
good luck wherever you are earl, not sure where "nowhere" is. I'm s going somewhere with my build, and its not looking like Hancha Group's site nor your antagonistic posts on our forum is doing it for me. I'm the 'customer'.

best,
Gem

Robispec seems to be doing fine, and I can assure you he charges top dollar for his work, and in exchange, you receive top quality parts.

Hancha's product is not for the masses. If you're looking for one-offs, exclusivisity, and customized solutions, then Hancha is for you.


Case in point: The Tein SRCs. 99.9% of this forum will instantly write it off for having 1. a high price point, 2. high spring rates, and 3. "being overkill". Every local client that purchased from us has noted that 1. it's a comprehensive package that offers great value for the price, 2. spring rates are only a small part of the equation (and ride quality), and 3. you get what you pay for. The product is not for everyone.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Gem, watch it.
you are putting words in his mouth instead of answering his questions, questions that were valid too.

Stop forcing your opinions down his throat if it differs to yours.
Let him engineer the design and do the simulations he wants.

nah, fellas, enjoy the thread, I'm done here, not subscribing. best I take leave before I cause a shit storm. I'll update my build thread as I get my parts in and get over to Robispec, thats the plan at present. There is no force feeding, down anyones throat, and no one is stopping anyone from theorizing on a computer. he speaks his mind, I speak mine, we differ, and thats ok. I will stand by my recommending the OP CUSCO or RacerX
bye guys!

[SkullWorks]

@Huehuecoyotl

Back way off dude that's actually just twice in 2 days you lied to try and make Earl look bad...you never responded to my request to identify his bashing before and I see why now, you have a bone to pick and are speaking above your pay grade.

You come across as ignorant with your posts about how "STEEL" is the best for everything, you claim to support development in the scene but you intentionally and unabashedly attack Hancha/Earl in their thread now and in another earlier where he isn't even toting his products.

You don't get it, we understand, quit trying to get RacerX (since you are apparently his #1 fanboi) and Hancha in a fight, they are both above your level of childish games and I'm sure RacerX is tired of you "defending" him when he hasn't been attacked. No one is talking about your car here, and frankly I dont think anyone cares. We get it you track your car and you think you're the best, go get your free cookie elsewhere, an intelligent human would prefer the stronger/stiffer unit in EACH case, not the "STEEL" one in everycase...

[u/Josh]

Thanks for the post.

How do the real world fatigue properties of steel, aluminum, and titanium compare?

[OmarGC]

@Huehuecoyotl you're really making yourself sound ignorant as shit. I'm going to assume your latest post have been after knocking down a few bottles.

[Ro_Ja]

Wasn't he banned once already for starting shit?

So this post isn't totally off-topic...great info. I'm a bit of a wheel snob (okay, I'm a HUGE wheel snob), so this topic is kinda up my alley since I obsess over wheel construction techniques/processes and materials.

[ill roller]

To dude bitching about hancha not doing real world tests... Here is me doing real world tests of their products.



This guy is just mad because Earl didn't want to donate free parts that weren't ready for testing to his build.

[OmarGC]

@ill roller your post will be deemed completely irrelavant because you're part of the stance crowd lmao

[SubieNate]

I can almost guarantee that a large number of companies providing suspension parts are basically taking a swag (scientific wild ass guess) on the safe side of things and making the parts. Unless you're going for the ultimate in strength or stiffness:weight that often works. I'm almost positive that for a large number of companies, product testing consists of "Make it fit", install, and "Did it break after a week of street driving? No? Cool! Let's sell it!"

It's awesome that Hancha is even bothering with FEA and proper modelling of the suspension. Because the majority aren't. Are there other exceptions? Yes. Are they the norm? Not any more than Hancha is.

Cheers
Nathan

[ill roller]

Originally Posted by OmarGC

@ill roller your post will be deemed completely irrelavant because you're part of the stance crowd lmao

That's fine by me... Regardless of how I choose to set the car up, I still daily drive my car on shitty chicago streets and attend at least one drift day per month with regular hard driving in between... If anything the lowness of my car should be an even greater test of the build quality and durability of Hancha's parts.