ECUTek question

[ATSAaron]

If I buy a tune/license/and cable from vender A for my NA FR-S but then later I decide to go turbo and buy a tune from vender B do I have to buy another license, or just the tune? My ecu doesn't get locked to the first vender does it?

Thanks,

[cnk]

You just need the tune.

[uspspro]

Hey Aaron, Nice to see yet another MR2 guy here.

The tune is locked, since it is the tuners IP. However the license and cable are yours to use with whatever tune you like. You can data log, upload new tunes, etc.

To do your own tuning, you need a pro license or some deal like that (much more expensive).

[jamesm]

The licensing on these maps seems crazy to me. I understand wanting to protect IP on canned tunes provided to customers over email (otherwise they'd be all over the pirate bay), but if I'm hiring a tuner hourly to perform work on my car, bespoke to my vehicle in person, I surely should own the end product. If the real world worked that way every software developer and graphic designer (or anyone else that gets hired to create ip for corporate clients) on earth would be wealthy lol. Are the maps even provided under any sort of license?

/rant

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by jamesm

The licensing on these maps seems crazy to me. I understand wanting to protect IP on canned tunes provided to customers over email (otherwise they'd be all over the pirate bay), but if I'm hiring a tuner hourly to perform work on my car, bespoke to my vehicle in person, I surely should own the end product. If the real world worked that way every software developer and graphic designer (or anyone else that gets hired to create ip for corporate clients) on earth would be wealthy lol. Are the maps even provided under any sort of license?

/rant

In the real world (US anyway), under default copyright law, you don't normally own software either. You purchase the right to use the software. The IP still belongs to the developer. Unless there is a written contract that expresses otherwise, ownership does not transfer to the consumer.

Anyway, it's roughly $300 for the map. Not really a lot of money to end up wealthy considering the amount of time the tuners put into the work, and the volume of transactions they're doing.

Larry Ellison, on the other hand, with his army of programmers and lawyers over at Oracle Software charging 47,500 per processor and 10,450 per year on license/support for their Oracle Enterprise Database product, yeah - that's wealthy.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Foobar

In the real world (US anyway), under default copyright law, you don't normally own software either. You purchase the right to use the software. The IP still belongs to the developer. Unless there is a written contract that expresses otherwise, ownership does not transfer to the consumer.

I understand that. My point is that when oracle hires a contractor to develop something for them the developer doesn't own the code. Ever. I'm oracle, the tuner is my contractor lol.

This is the only IP-related situation I can think of where the guy who pays for the work doesn't end up owning the result of it.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by jamesm

I understand that. My point is that when oracle hires a contractor to develop something for them the developer doesn't own the code. Ever. I'm oracle, the tuner is my contractor lol.

This is the only IP-related situation I can think of where the guy who pays for the work doesn't end up owning the result of it.

Sorry no, that's not an accurate analogy. When my company hires contractors to do custom software development, we have a written contract that establishes us as the owners of the IP developed during their contract.

To continue my previous example, when my company purchases licenses for Oracle Enterprise software and has Oracle consultants come out to configure the system to work in my environment, they still own the software and are only granting me a right to use it.

In the ECUTek example, nobody is developing custom software per your specifications, they are configuring it for your use-case.

Your analogy would be valid if you were to hire someone to develop software that unlocks the ECU, allows you to do your own tuning, and you can choose to sell said software to anyone else if you decide to go that route. For example, if you approached Epifan and contracted him to develop BRZEdit for your personal use without restriction, then yeah - that's what you'd have.

Anyway, back to the point at hand - ECUTek grants you a license to use their software in one vehicle for ~$300. They sell you a proprietary cable for ~$250. The ECUTek tuner then provides you his tune (tweaked for your vehicle, however many times you need it re-tweaked) for ~$300. Both tuners I've used have spent quite a bit of time working with me on re-tweaking my tune, so not at all a bad deal, IMHO.

$300+$250 going to the folks at ECUTek on the other hand, kind of steep in my opinion, but at the time I had my tune done, it was the only game in town and was the price you had to pay to play.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Foobar

Sorry no, that's not an accurate analogy. When my company hires contractors to do custom software development, we have a written contract that establishes us as the owners of the IP developed during their contract.

I've worked as an independent contractor on software projects for over a decade, and I've never in my career asked for or been granted IP rights to any of my client's projects at any point during the process. So your saying if a client fires you half way through a project, you own everything created up to that point? What if you are contracted to improve an existing product? I presume they regain the rights when the contract ends, which would cover the 'getting fired' case. Interesting, just not the way any company I've worked for operates to my knowledge.

anyway... i find this market very interesting since it presents issues like this. i
don't debate a tuner's right to IP on a distributed map that they've created and then sold to end users under a license. that's fine. what irks me is tuner's claiming IP on something they were contracted and paid by someone else to create, bespoke to that user.

what this means practically is that say i'm indecisive. i couldn't decide between black and red. i'm also very wealthy (i'm not, but play along), so i just buy both. one day i get the need for more power so i piece together a turbo setup for the black one and pay a local tuner to make me a base map. now, two months later i've decided the red one needs a turbo as well, and replicate the same setup on the new car. what we're saying here is that even if i buy a second ecutek license and cable (since their licensed to a vin), i can't use the map i've already paid a contractor to create. in the end, i own nothing and have to pay for the same service again, unnecessarily. the tuner not only gets paid his rate, he gets rights to the end product of the work. that is not typical, at least in my experience.

edit: i just re-read your post and realized you were probably referring to a contract under which you had a payment schedule, hence why you retain IP until the contract is closed and paid. i'm sure we probably do that too (though we typically only work hourly), so i stand corrected there. that said: that kinda makes my point. when the contract is closed, the person who paid the bills got the IP. exactly what i'm saying isn't happening in this market.

[puma]

bumping a thread as i am new to these cars, so if i buy a full license and all the kit, get it tune to my local dyno who has a license, i won't be able to modify my A/F ratio trim if let say i find a small weak spot at X RPM? Or decide i want to change the water temp correction factor? Is that what i understand?

If i buy a turbo kit that comes with the tune, i put it in, there is no way i can start from this tune to tweak it a little bit?

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by puma

bumping a thread as i am new to these cars, so if i buy a full license and all the kit, get it tune to my local dyno who has a license, i won't be able to modify my A/F ratio trim if let say i find a small weak spot at X RPM? Or decide i want to change the water temp correction factor? Is that what i understand?

If i buy a turbo kit that comes with the tune, i put it in, there is no way i can start from this tune to tweak it a little bit?

Depends on the tune/tuner. My tuners ROM has been left unlocked for me, but that was his decision on the understanding I wouldn't share it.

[puma]

oh ok i see so basically if i want to do something like this and my tuner is an ass i am stuck with it.

What if i find an other tuner that doesn't really have a license, would he be able to do all the same thing and have access to all the same parameter as the master tuner but with my license?

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by puma

oh ok i see so basically if i want to do something like this and my tuner is an ass i am stuck with it.

What if i find an other tuner that doesn't really have a license, would he be able to do all the same thing and have access to all the same parameter as the master tuner but with my license?

You won't get the RaceRom features, unless you purchase the add-on. There's no reason you can't do it that way though.

[fooddude]

You can save $300 and rent the cable