Oil Analysis - 1st oil change

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by KSC

edit: I got most of the info I was looking for.

What I'm still trying to figure out, is if a failsafe way to determine the difference (from the bottle itself) between the Scooby SM and SN formulations was ever discovered?

I'm lazy so I'll just copy my post from the Forester board in response to someone that was surprised dealers are still using SM oil:

Any oil to get the API Certification Mark after September 2011, MUST be GF5. I suspect that SoA just ordered way too much of the original SM/GF4 oil. Otherwise, Idemitsu would be manufacturing oil that does not meet proper specs. OTOH, the SM/GF4 oil is pretty much impossible to find in Canada.

This is a response to my email in early September 2011.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. All Subaru Synthetic Motor Oil is licensed by the American Petroleum Institute (API) as Energy Conserving SM for Gasoline Engines and GF-4 ILSAC rated.

Information on our future products is not available. We do appreciate though that you brought your interest to our attention. Your message has been documented in our Customer/Dealer Services database. This will allow for your message to be properly reviewed, tracked and considered by our Product Management Department. Subaru is always striving to improve upon our products and appreciates when our customers bring their recommendations to our attention.

About the cutover date:

After September 30, 2011, the ILSAC GF-5 minimum performance standard for gasoline passenger car engine oils becomes the only basis for issuance of a license to use the API Certification Mark.

http://www.infineum.com/Pages/gf5-11.aspx

The older Idemitsu oil had high levels of moly and Subaru owners were specifically looking for SM oil. Then the SM labeled bottles started showing reductions in moly. Maybe they could just be using old labels, who knows.

-Dennis

[KSC]

Yeah, I had a feeling it would be tough getting a hold of the SM, but I saw someone over at BITOG score some in late January, so I figured I'd give it a go.

No big deal. I'll end up either going with the Mazda w/ Moly of if I'm feeling particularly snobby, Sustina.

I wonder why the Idemitsu Mazda blend is loaded with Moly, though? That's SN/GF-5, so obviously the high presense of Molt doesn't necessarily reflect its compliance to the new guidelines. Did Subaru request the change themselves? What reason would they want their SN stuff to have zero Moly when it was loaded before?

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by KSC

Yeah, I had a feeling it would be tough getting a hold of the SM, but I saw someone over at BITOG score some in late January, so I figured I'd give it a go.

No big deal. I'll end up either going with the Mazda w/ Moly of if I'm feeling particularly snobby, Sustina.

I wonder why the Idemitsu Mazda blend is loaded with Moly, though? That's SN/GF-5, so obviously the high presense of Molt doesn't necessarily reflect its compliance to the new guidelines. Did Subaru request the change themselves? What reason would they want their SN stuff to have zero Moly when it was loaded before?

In an email someone shared with me from Idemitsu (see below), they said that they were removing moly to meet GF5 standards . I believe that moly causes more ash. Kind of ironic since they now make a high moly Mazda oil like you mentioned.

I know the new trimer moly that is being used allows much lower levels of moly in order to achieve the same benefit in regards to friction modification.
http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Cr...ogy%202009.pdf

But the Mazda stuff has old fashioned levels of moly. I guess they came up with a way to make it work.

You ask some very good questions which I will answer in “generalities”. First, just so you know where the information is coming from, Idemitsu supplies most of the OEM’s for both Factory fill and service fill. In the case of Toyota, we do not supply their service fill oil so I cannot comment on that particular formulation.

OEMs specify Moly in their factory fill formulations to increase fuel economy during the initial period. In general a factory fill formula will be more robust in the additive treatments etc. This is done for a variety of reasons which I will not go into here.

Some of the service fill formulations also contained molybdenum however, with the transition to the ILSAC GF-5 specification, most 0W-20 service fill 0W-20 formulations now do not have Moly. That being said, you are always safest following the OEMs recommendations. All service fill OE formulas that we supply have been submitted to a full battery of tests at that respective OEM’s R&D facilities in Japan and have been approved.

-Dennis

[KSC]

It's definitely an odd move on Subaru's part. Maybe they'll offer a "w/ Moly" later on down the line as well...?

I'm most likely going with the Sustina, which I'm almost positive is the trimer type and over 100ppm. Probably a waste of money being I don't plan on any lengthy drains or driving it too hard, anyway. I'm sure any of the other top brands in the $6-8 a qt would be just as good, but I'm stubborn like that.

[slowbrz]

Which particles from Blackstone analysis is considered to be metal shavings? Are metal shavings from a brand new engine bad for the engine hence need to be changed right away?

I lack a lot of understanding of oil contaminants

[R L Newb]

Large quantities of metals are bad but as you can see in the analyses there aren't enormous amounts in the initial fill. You can follow the manual and keep the initial fill in the engine for up to 7500 miles.

[smbrm]

Originally Posted by slowbrz

Which particles from Blackstone analysis is considered to be metal shavings? Are metal shavings from a brand new engine bad for the engine hence need to be changed right away?

I lack a lot of understanding of oil contaminants

Depends on what you think "metal shavings" means?

A standard used oil evaluation usually includes: ICP-AES(Inductively Coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectrometry)ICP-AES

which detects low levels of suspended wear debris in terms of mg/kg or ppm(parts per million)

For larger stuff(shavings?) ferrography tests add another level of knowledge.

"....Ferrography advantages:
By monitoring particles generated by wear or environmental contamination, Intertek ferrography experts are able to to detect the critical stage of accelerated wear that precedes costly and dangerous component failures. Ferrographic analyses determines the number, size and shape of wear particles....."

UOA(Used oil analysis) is used for condition monitoring, and change from a baseline is important. In other words, while there are some absolute guidelines, knowledge of what is normal for your engine after viewing a few oil change analysis and change from what is normal is important. But it is still only an indicator. There are lots of variables to understanding UOA.

Professional guidance should be sought regarding understanding UOA results and before making decisions about repair needs based on oil analysis results.

[eurominican]

So is subaru full synthetic oil good or no? Im ready to do 1st oil change at 250 miles and need to know. Thanks!! BTW I've read whole thread and theres a lot of technical terms (moly?) but all I want to know is if this oil is good/better than, say Mobil 1 Synthetic or Pennzoil Platinum. I know Motul, Eneos, et al are the S#!t... but I wont run same oil for more than like 5k miles if that so the cost is too high for me.. Thanks in advance!



EDIT: did some research and found out what "moly" is.. Thanks bobistheoilguy !!

[R L Newb]

Don't do your change at 250 miles... This thread is trying to show the oil lasts for 7500 miles easy. There is also something to the initial fill that contains a large amount of bonus materials not found in the refill oil.

The Subie 0w-20 is good for standard use.

[eurominican]

Originally Posted by R L Newb

Don't do your change at 250 miles... This thread is trying to show the oil lasts for 7500 miles easy. There is also something to the initial fill that contains a large amount of bonus materials not found in the refill oil.

The Subie 0w-20 is good for standard use.

Thank you for reply! Re-reading the thread right now and this is what I gather (That initial fill is very good)

My main concern now is that I do subscribe to the "break it in hard" camp, and don't want metal particles floating in my engine.. I wonder if any of the very knowledgeable gents that have posted in this thread have actually run the car hard during break-in period and then sent oil for analysis. This is what I mean by hard break-in. Another thing that I would really like to know is if the FA20 engine comes broken in from factory like, say, the R8 engine. (see linked vid and skip to 12:20)

[ame="http://youtu.be/5rXyumi9c6I?t=12m20s"]http://youtu.be/5rXyumi9c6I?t=12m20s[/ame]

Yes, some engines are run very hard at the factory, giving credence to the hard break-in method.

[KSC]

250 is way to early, IMO. 1k is really the earliest, if you're in the cautious camp, with 7K being the other end of the spectrum. I would suggest taking a stance somewhere in the middle. Normally, I'd be in the cautious group myself, but after educating myself on the benefits of oil additives, I've decided to leave the factory fill in a bit longer that I had originally planned. My suggestion, and it's just one of many, would be 2500-3K. Even Subaru suggest 3750, so I wouldn't go too far over that.

[brillo]

I changed my filter at 100 mi and 1,000 mi and will change the oil around 5,000

[eurominican]

Originally Posted by brillo

I changed my filter at 100 mi and 1,000 mi and will change the oil around 5,000

I think this is a good compromise. Thanks for the idea, I think I'll do the same except would provably follow KSC advise and change the oil around 3500 miles.

[R L Newb]

Originally Posted by KSC

250 is way to early, IMO. 1k is really the earliest, if you're in the cautious camp, with 7K being the other end of the spectrum. I would suggest taking a stance somewhere in the middle. Normally, I'd be in the cautious group myself, but after educating myself on the benefits of oil additives, I've decided to leave the factory fill in a bit longer that I had originally planned. My suggestion, and it's just one of many, would be 2500-3K. Even Subaru suggest 3750, so I wouldn't go too far over that.

3750 is for the boosted EJ, the FA/FB engines have been 7500. I got nervous myself and swapped at 5k. The oil was in great shape, this engine is so much nicer to oils than the 2.5T.


The manufacturer gives us a manual with a straightforward break-in procedure.

■

New vehicle break-in driving (the first 1000 miles [1600 km])

The performance and long life of your vehicle are dependent on how you
handle and care for your vehicle while it is new. Follow these instructions
during the first 1000 miles (1600 km):

●

Do not allow the engine speed to exceed 4000 rpm except in an emergency.

●

Do not drive at one constant engine or vehicle speed for a long time,
either fast or slow.

●

Avoid starting suddenly and rapid acceleration, except in an emergency.

●

Avoid hard braking, except in an emergency.
The same break-in procedures should be applied to an overhauled engine,
newly mounted engine or when brake pads or brake linings are replaced

with new ones.