Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread - Page 4 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Huehuecoyotl · 03-07-2013, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermassive

.... 7PSI on a turbo boosted engine with an 8500RPM redline and a 9000RPM rev limit. ...

we need to get together and go for a drive!

cf6mech · 03-08-2013, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermassive

I feel like this is a good time to chime in on the 7400+ RPM discussion. No I have not pulled my engine apart, one day I will get the desire to get in there and mess around but at the moment the engine is the least of my concerns. I am running "only" 7PSI on a turbo boosted engine with an 8500RPM redline and a 9000RPM rev limit. I've been running this kit daily since early January, with just over 4000miles on the turbo so yes it's still too early to comment on valvetrain reliability. What I do have to say is that the engine has no issues what so ever when revving up to 8500RPM and I would say that I am a lead foot so it happens quite frequently (the sound alone is worth the price). The car is a ***** cat around town and an out and out beast the second you bury the throttle. It's nice that cf6 has taken the time to have an engine builder work on his car and they convinced him to spend money on beefier parts. I used to "trust" my engine builders until I started building my own motorcycle engines and found that stock parts are always over engineered in an engine, especially a performance engine. Does that mean that they will last indefinitely, no not likely, I know I am causing more wear on the car and the internals. But to say that the dozens of tuners running 400+HP cars with redlines in excess of 7400RPM are all wrong based on the opinion of one shop is just silly.

Luckily I have the disposable income to push this motor as is and if the heads give way in any fashion I will upgrade and replace as I see fit. I am going with the general concensus that lower compression pistons and forged connecting rods are a boon since they will allow higher boost on pump gas and a more square hp to torque ratio, but the utter lack of any development of head related parts leads me to believe that no one has found a real need for them. Everything else on this car has been supported by the aftermarket so why isn't there any company pumping out parts for the head?

My 2 cents might not go a long way but I don't buy things based on the opinions of one person, no matter how good they might be at what they do. To me it sounds like cf6 has a hell of an engine but without any hard evidence to say that our heads cannot handle higher RPM's reliably then we are all just speculating. That being said I am looking forward to building up my own engine with my own two hands so I can personally see and understand what is going on in there instead of just trusting someone else to tell me what I need to spend my money on.

Different strokes for different folks,.....I'm running 18psi,...and 18psi at 12.5 to 1 compression is no bueno for me,......call me silly on this performance engine (as you call it) and its beefy stock internals, but I'm building a track car and forged with low compression is my choice,....you all can do what ever you want and take your own risks on this Subaru over engineered racing engine

. I also have the resources to pay to play, but unlike you not the time to do my own engine builds, good for you, the engines I normally work on power Boeing 777 and 767's hence my cf6 moniker, but life, my daughter and OT dig deep into my home life....There is no reason to go beyond 7400,...especially just cause it sounds cool,...as mine, and almost all the dyno's I've seen show power flattening out way before that, and I'm shifting where my Dyno says peak power is....(yours might be different)... I'm already pushing this engine on one front, I don't see the need nor anyones need to increase revolutions for power to double up on design limits unless someone is N/A......Speculation is one thing,......but then there is this thing called common sense. Common sense,... of which doesn't require a engine builder to convince a client to be true, just to sell parts.

Sonolin · 03-08-2013, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Different strokes for different folks,.....I'm running 18psi,...and 18psi at 12.5 to 1 compression is no bueno for me,......call me silly on this performance engine (as you call it) and its beefy stock internals, but I'm building a track car and forged with low compression is my choice,....you all can do what ever you want and take your own risks on this Subaru over engineered racing engine

. I also have the resources to pay to play, but unlike you not the time to do my own engine builds, good for you, the engines I normally work on power Boeing 777 and 767's but life, kids and OT dig deep into my home life....there is no reason to go beyond 7400,...especially just cause it sounds cool,...as my power on the dyno flattens out way before that, and I'm shifting where my Dyno says peak power is....(others might be different)... I'm already pushing this engine on one front, I don't see the need nor anyones need to increase revolutions for power to double up on design limits unless someone is N/A......Speculation is one thing,......but then there is this thing called common sense. Common sense,... of which doesn't require a engine builder to convince a client to be true, just to sell parts.

I agree. I'd be changing gear ratios before I up the rev limit (mostly to be on the safe side & warranty reasons).

If your ambitious enough and can pay for any potential damage, I say have fun with a higher redline. That sounds like it would be a lot of fun, but until I hear more about the "reliability" of this engine I'm apprehensive. It is proving to hold up quite well with boost so far, but I'm not an engine expert.

Huehuecoyotl · 03-08-2013, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Different strokes for different folks,.....I'm running 18psi,...and 18psi at 12.5 to 1 compression is no bueno for me,......call me silly on this performance engine (as you call it) and its beefy stock internals, but I'm building a track car and forged with low compression is my choice,....you all can do what ever you want and take your own risks on this Subaru over engineered racing engine

. I also have the resources to pay to play, but unlike you not the time to do my own engine builds, good for you, the engines I normally work on power Boeing 777 and 767's hence my cf6 moniker, but life, my daughter and OT dig deep into my home life....There is no reason to go beyond 7400,...especially just cause it sounds cool,...as mine, and almost all the dyno's I've seen show power flattening out way before that, and I'm shifting where my Dyno says peak power is....(yours might be different)... I'm already pushing this engine on one front, I don't see the need nor anyones need to increase revolutions for power to double up on design limits unless someone is N/A......Speculation is one thing,......but then there is this thing called common sense. Common sense,... of which doesn't require a engine builder to convince a client to be true, just to sell parts.

1st @cf6mech, thanks for your sensible post full of the logic I can relate to!

2nd, my question is, as you got to 18psi, I assume you may have done this incrementally? At what point did you add injectors(dont seem to "need" them below 12), and can you share what youre running in that regard? Also, whose clutch did you go with and can I ask you to share a bit more about your build in a thread? If you prefer to stay low key,thats cool too.

lastly, where is that point you recommend as a pit stop for someone like myself who doesnt mind putting the dosh down eventually but wants to get some maximization out of my initial purchase and wants to keep some semblance of OE motor safety? I'm at 9psi, and my range is up to 14ish, can you offer any advice on whats a good place to 'rest' before I get inline behind ya? Thanks in advance

cf6mech · 03-08-2013, 04:02 PM

Thanks H, I will tell you first off we knew are goals for this car starting out, and yes went incrementally on boost with pump gas, then switched to E85 at max boost, I will list parts wise whats in the car and some reasons,...I started a build thread then decided against ..... probable because I couldn't keep it updated , and didn't want to mess with the juvenile fanboys and haters out there,....guess my 54 years is showing.

Engine wise.

Zeitronixs Engine Data Logger, because its easier to tune off of and gives real time info for all the engine parameters and can recall what my engine was doing on the track,...heat issues, pressures ect.

Perrin thermostatically controlled oil cooler, turbo's run oil temps high, this is a must on any turbo powered 86 as there is no factory oil cooler, also ditched 0w 20 oil weight and running Amsoil 10w-40 Sythetic\

Crawford Air Oil seperator, another must for me.

Short block,....Arias custom forged pistons 9 to 1 compression, and Pauter X beam rods,...kind of over kill on the rods, good for like 900hp, but the ones we wanted had a two month wait, and we didn't want the wait. The compression lowering has added great dividends on the dyno and the Torque is huge on this car more like a standard Subaru build, let alone the safety factor.ACL high performance Subaru rod bearings with extra oil clearance. ARP Subaru head stud kit to prevent it from going pop!

Fuel
Deatschworks 300lph fuel pump, Deatschworks 1000cc injectors.

Accelerated Performance turbo, with custome 2.5 exhaust to a Magnaflow muffler. I like AP's kit for a bunch of reasons , the turbos location,its away from the engine bay not contributing to engine bay heat and in a spot where a simple metal deflector fabricated underneath can direct cooling air on it, same idea my Boss Musting had for the trans cooler. Also any weight I can move down low, to the center, or to the back incrementally benefits the car, lastly it free's up a ton of space compared to other kits I have seen where the turbo is mounted between radiator and the block , tons of clutter , serpentine belt barely even visable, heat generator in front of engine convectionally spreading parasitic heat to engine bay.

My turbo intake is different than what AP designed turns right instead of left and now my airfilter sits where the battery was, Battery is relocated to the trunk for better weight distrubution? (again incrementally low, center or back) The 86 badge panel will be a functional area to feed cold air to the intake which will be boxed and isolated from engine bay. On E85 and a very conservative Mustang Dyno we are making 365whp and 301 torque. The Torque alone will allow me to carry a gear higher in turns which provides better corner speeds,...also not winding the piss out of the engine like some want to do for power insures more longevity,...more track time....cooler engine.....love the Torque number and it comes on early....all good.

Clutchmaster FX400 clutch.

Stoptech ST-40 4 piston BBK 328x28 with stainless braided lines front and back.

KW Variant 3 coilovers....still not wheel weight balanced yet....but getting there.

Cusco sway bars front and back....these might be changed,....still waiting for track time and testing.

AMR Engineering Camber plates

Mach V Awesume 17x9 rims,...don't like the name but know the wheel manufacturer...made by D-Force and extremely lite, D-Force wheels have seen alot of track time with the BMW crowd with good results. Mounted on a square set of Yokohama Advan AD08 245/40....may have to go bigger in back as traction is a problem right now...i.e going staggered instead of square, not liking this idea for tire rotation, tons of room out back but limits on camber with clearance going wide up front. Don't like spacers.

The Drive Shaft shop Carbon Fiber driveshaft,....obvious performance gain here in how lite it is,...also easier on tranny and diff do to its flexability and gentleness on drive line components.....once again thinking longevity.

Ordered Drive shaft shop performance axles,..also a longevity and strength choice..should be in any day now so not installed and I'm seriously looking at a Diff upgrade.

Only awe cool thing is my chosen shop AWDTUNING.COM is getting into manufacturing side of things and making Alunimum intakes to replace the plastic intake thats OEM on the FA20....mine will be their prototype along with the cover plate where Toyota and Subaru share space, not sure of any gains here but it will be polished smooth internally and powder coated Blue to match my tubing. Not sure this is 100% happening but a BRZ intake was bought by my shop and has been sent to CAD.

As a whole, my build is all performance orientated,...have not even thought about any kind of looks inhancing Aero or to make this car look like its a 200mph car standing still....Once I get on the track I will try to evaluate functional Aero if needed at all.

Supermassive · 03-09-2013, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cf6mech

As a whole, my build is all performance orientated,...have not even thought about any kind of looks inhancing Aero or to make this car look like its a 200mph car standing still....Once I get on the track I will try to evaluate functional Aero if needed at all.

Awesome build, and don't take my comments as attacks, I appreciate anyone who steps up and does more than slap an exhaust on a car and call it quits. I will say this though, the rear end on this car gets really light at speed, the lack of any real rear end down force generation makes speeds of 120mph+ interesting to say the least. I am currently looking for a functional yet not obnoxious rear wing to help get the rear to behave. Finding my ideal suspension settings on the KW V3's is a little out of my league and I am waiting to have them professionally adjusted. If you don't mind me asking what spring rates are you running? Also I have found that I have a hard time getting the rear tires to hook up and I'm only at 260WHP so I wouldn't mind a ballpark suspension setup to start at to get things sorted. If not, I understand.

Huehuecoyotl · 03-09-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Awesome build, and don't take my comments as attacks, I appreciate anyone who steps up and does more than slap an exhaust on a car and call it quits. I will say this though, the rear end on this car gets really light at speed, the lack of any real rear end down force generation makes speeds of 120mph+ interesting to say the least. I am currently looking for a functional yet not obnoxious rear wing to help get the rear to behave. Finding my ideal suspension settings on the KW V3's is a little out of my league and I am waiting to have them professionally adjusted. If you don't mind me asking what spring rates are you running? Also I have found that I have a hard time getting the rear tires to hook up and I'm only at 260WHP so I wouldn't mind a ballpark suspension setup to start at to get things sorted. If not, I understand.

Super-
Oddly Mine feels very planted at 130mph..we have alot of open space by me to test, too, so I eagerly await warmer weather to invite to my neck o the woods

375Front,440 rear, valving on both set near full soft on rebound, compression up front is midway, I prefer this setting a bit stiff for tighter response in fast twisties. I agree, the higher the power level goes, the softer I want my rear end sprung so there is 'room' for sway bar' in my setup.

I'm also running the rear psi a but lower for that outta corner hook up. All these guys wanting to make a car that handles right above 350 need to put a bit of stategy into it, its not quite outta the box, yet.

More high speed testing needed, LOL!

cf6mech
where ya been hiding, pal? seems awdtuning is someone to have a look at-no interest on forum presence on their end?

I am interested in speaking with you off line about the pistons and rods, but I am truthfully hoping to see a bit of mileage outta this box before I go turning the dial past 12psi, but indeed, north of there its silly to go out to play without a dialed in motor and headwork. 365/301 is pretty sweet, not sure most would venture past there-are you good where you are or do you plan to tap in to the capability you just bestowed upon yourself with that motorwork? clearly you can go higher if you want.

arent the cusco's 25mm/19mm? I tend to think this sounds too stiff, and am getting mine hoefully arriving this week in 22/16

I dont know that aero has much place -personally I see a great design and dont want to go messing with the perfect c/d they dialed in-thanks for the tip on the Zeitronixs, looking at that for sure-I want to play!

thanks all for your posts, enjoying this here

jdzumwalt · 03-09-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Awesome build, and don't take my comments as attacks, I appreciate anyone who steps up and does more than slap an exhaust on a car and call it quits. I will say this though, the rear end on this car gets really light at speed, the lack of any real rear end down force generation makes speeds of 120mph+ interesting to say the least. I am currently looking for a functional yet not obnoxious rear wing to help get the rear to behave. Finding my ideal suspension settings on the KW V3's is a little out of my league and I am waiting to have them professionally adjusted. If you don't mind me asking what spring rates are you running? Also I have found that I have a hard time getting the rear tires to hook up and I'm only at 260WHP so I wouldn't mind a ballpark suspension setup to start at to get things sorted. If not, I understand.

Flip your springs and your car will hook up.

Unleashed · 03-09-2013, 12:54 PM

I had the priveledge of driving a vortech supercharged FR-S the other night after a local meet here in Vegas and gotta say, I was a little disappointed. By saying that I am not knocking the supercharger itself, I think I just had really high expectations for it. I don't know the whp/tq of the car I drove and neither did the owner because he just got it installed and hasn't had a chance to dyno it yet, but it is running visconti's tune. I thought the car would put me back in my seat more and give you that rush but i guess I am just a little biassed having owned a mustang gt and mr2 turbo with GT35R in the past.

Just my personal impression of the kit. Great production quality, clean look, and great performance for those looking to not have to down shift as often on the highway. If you want that rush though I would say go turbocharged.

cf6mech · 03-09-2013, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supermassive

Awesome build, and don't take my comments as attacks, I appreciate anyone who steps up and does more than slap an exhaust on a car and call it quits. I will say this though, the rear end on this car gets really light at speed, the lack of any real rear end down force generation makes speeds of 120mph+ interesting to say the least. I am currently looking for a functional yet not obnoxious rear wing to help get the rear to behave. Finding my ideal suspension settings on the KW V3's is a little out of my league and I am waiting to have them professionally adjusted. If you don't mind me asking what spring rates are you running? Also I have found that I have a hard time getting the rear tires to hook up and I'm only at 260WHP so I wouldn't mind a ballpark suspension setup to start at to get things sorted. If not, I understand.

The coil overs were pretty much just slapped on, once the engine is completely sorted I will be heading to a place called Track Werks in Ft. Worth for weight balance and suspension tuning, as far as traction,... will either go in one of two directions, super wide rubber with subsequent body modifications more $$$$ , or turning down the boost. Aero not sure yet as I need track time to experiance for myself were I need to go. I'm following Element Tunings build very closely, and taking notes from them, unless they have abandoned their quest, haven't seen anything lately, their FRS build is for Time Attack/Time Trial with a goal of 500hp....As a note, they have removed the back sway bar...none...and run stiff up front.

H......AWDTUNING not getting involved forum wise is twofold, one the tuner doesn't like forums and frankly super busy and in huge demand as a tuner, I've more than once have pissed him off asking him why he is working on cars x y or z instead of my car, when the truth is it pays the bills and my car has gotten tons of free dyno time and free labor because of what it is, he is a perfectionist and obsessive about his tunes, sometimes staying at the shop till 2am with out of town customers to get it right , two, the person involved with advert and plubicity has told me this forum has very strict rules for vendors coming on the site,....Expect big things from this shop as their rep is golden , they have bought CNC machinery to break into manufacturing backed by a multimillion dollar company in Mexico ( check out their Mexico STI on their web site they are prepping for the Texas Mile in this month,784 whp Modena sequential gearbox, its nutz!) they are taking it tho one step at a time, very hard working folks and going big, in every direction.

sw20kosh · 03-09-2013, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unleashed

I had the priveledge of driving a vortech supercharged FR-S the other night after a local meet here in Vegas and gotta say, I was a little disappointed. By saying that I am not knocking the supercharger itself, I think I just had really high expectations for it. I don't know the whp/tq of the car I drove and neither did the owner because he just got it installed and hasn't had a chance to dyno it yet, but it is running visconti's tune. I thought the car would put me back in my seat more and give you that rush but i guess I am just a little biassed having owned a mustang gt and mr2 turbo with GT35R in the past.

Just my personal impression of the kit. Great production quality, clean look, and great performance for those looking to not have to down shift as often on the highway. If you want that rush though I would say go turbocharged.

lol thats a centrifugal for ya! They are not show stoppers but they do greatly improve performance on track where you are always in the higher rpms. On the street you wont notice it unless you know where to look (and are willing to wind it out)

Unleashed · 03-09-2013, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

lol thats a centrifugal for ya! They are not show stoppers but they do greatly improve performance on track where you are always in the higher rpms. On the street you wont notice it unless you know where to look (and are willing to wind it out)

Yeah, that damn lack of torque down low is still there though and I think that was the most dissappointing thing. I wound it out to 7500rpm's 2nd-5th gear getting on the highway and was going a lot faster than the stock FR-S but it never had that garb you by the balls feeling that a turbo car or high displacement car gives you due to the kit making less than 200lbs tq.

rice_classic · 03-09-2013, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unleashed

but it never had that grab you by the balls feeling

I've never ever, not once ever, not in my wildest dreams, not while tripping on peyote with the Tribe, not even while being diagnosed by Dr. Freud....

Did I ever think that having a car grab my balls would be a good thing.

Just Sayin'

2forme · 03-10-2013, 10:12 AM

Quote: