Got my car back from Vortech!-3rd party tests & test drivers thread

[Tansey86]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

The stock valve train,...if you guys have seen it like I have,.....you would be very hesitant in trying to push it past factory limits,....trust me.

Yet Visconti says these heads are beastly from the factory and pushing it to 8k is no problem. Hm.

[cf6mech]

Originally Posted by Tansey86

Yet Visconti says these heads are beastly from the factory and pushing it to 8k is no problem. Hm.

Not sure if he has seen it intimately up close and been side by side by a proffesional engine builder (who builds 500whp Subaru engines on a regular bases) like I have when we forged my FA20 build, I'm talking excepting a higher rpm long term,......absolutely wouldn't do it, even short term. BTW thats my FA20 completely torn down on the table.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Not sure if he has seen it intimately up close and been side by side by a proffesional engine builder (who builds 500whp Subaru engines on a regular bases) like I have when we forged my FA20 build, I'm talking excepting a higher rpm long term,......absolutely wouldn't do it, even short term.

Why, what parts concerned you?

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

Originally Posted by Tansey86

Yet Visconti says these heads are beastly from the factory and pushing it to 8k is no problem. Hm.

I don't think anyone (at least publicly) has put enough hard miles on a boosted car yet to truly say what the limits are. That fact that other more expensive, factory turbocharged and higher revving cars end up needing valvetrain tells me the f20a is prolly gonna be be no different...Like tellling people you don't need a clutch if you're under 300whp lol...If gives people the illusion that their stock clutch is fine for those power levels...what happens 3- 6 months from now? I once made almost 700whp on a bone stock k series motor...wouldn't tell anyone else to do it.

[cf6mech]

Rocker arms/lifters....in general how the hydraulic lifters work ie the design of the oil gallery and how easily the rocker arms can be displaced,.....hard to explain unless you can see it up close, in person. There is nothing even close to beastly on these heads parts wise, in reality I was actual disappointed and wish Toyota would of let Subaru do the heads, along with Prius tires, these heads look Prius like.

[Coheed]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Rocker arms/lifters....in general how the hydraulic lifters work ie the design of the oil gallery and how easily the rocker arms can be displaced,.....hard to explain unless you can see it up close, in person. There is nothing even close to beastly on these heads parts wise, in reality I was actual disappointed and wish Toyota would of let Subaru do the heads, along with Prius tires, these heads look Prius like.

Didn't crawford say the lifters were solid?

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Coheed

Didn't crawford say the lifters were solid?

I'd hope so. The service schedule states to check valve clearances!!

[cf6mech]

This if it helps you out.... Coheed......ft sjo

The FA20’s symmetrical 86mm bore and 86mm stroke gives further credence to the square bore philosophy that allows for high-rpm capabilities but without sacrificing proper heat dissipation. Subaru also implemented its AVCS (Active Valve Control System), which features variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust cams. To be sure, AVCS is partially what gives the FA20 its broad torque curve and high-rpm capabilities, all the way to its 7,400rpm redline. Subaru’s variable valve timing technology, much like other manufacturers’ systems, uses hydraulic preasure to manipulate valve timing according to engine load. Unlike previous Subaru engines, though, the FA20’s AVCS sensors and solenoids are positioned differently. The new chain-driven camshafts now allow for a smaller AVCS mechanism and a design that’s, overall, much more impact-resistant when compared to its predecessors.

[ft_sjo]

What's AVCS got to do with hydraulic followers? Back in your box son!

[cf6mech]

All e85 here, all done without Visconti (nothing against Jon but there is a cadre of tuners out there less vocal and stay off of forums), staying below 7400 and nearing 400whp, I too am looking at reliability long term,.....hence forged pistons and rods,....so I'm more than out of the box, more so than 99% of the guys going fI on this engine and I doubt very few have seen the internals of these heads as my engine builder has, and I just happened to be there at the time. He likes safe, so do I. Anything above design limits was a no go with him , and he showed me why (as that was a goal of mine),...not anymore!....so choose your own poison.

[rice_classic]

At risk of prodding a dead horse here. I second the theory to refrain from higher rpms, at least until we know why pcasso's engine lost a valve.

Consider how many variables are in an engine. Even if the bearings, block, crank, rods, pistons and valves and springs can go to 8400 rpms... that's all fine and dandy but if the valve retainers can't, or the half-moon keepers that hold the valve in the retainer cannot... then poof there goes the engine.

Hopefully pcasso's situation is a fluke, after all the StopTech guy did successfully complete the 25 hours Enduro at ThunderHill last December without any mechanical issues so that's a good sign.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Note-Edited and consolidated to make it fewer posts.

Photo:It was still pulling, as it tends to with FI, well past 6000, was the point of the picture.

Redline, thats a great topic/question Mine set to = 7400, after lots of testing past there and much discussion with Vortech, -Yes, it is err'ing conservatively by intent.

This is a valid debate topic, I had a higher redline when I was NA. I know folks are boosted running past OE rev limit doing "Just Fine" (ehm for now), but I couldnt justify it in terms of physics vs Dyno plot vs risk vs tapering off volumetric efficiency, tho extended beyond stock does make more power, its diminishing returns on most FI charts.

think twice about the kool aid being passed around about running extended rev limits into 8000+. Hey, I'm not here to tell you to not do it, just raising a caution flag.

There is such a thing as valve float and I am betting the hardness of stock metallurgy will give the high revving crowd lots to think of when those odometers roll over 75000 miles. We'll see how FA20 does.

I have done this before and had to remove a SC from my car due to excessive blow by and fuel contamination and such-that car had the redline raised, tuned, SC, etc etc also

so making more power above redline is indeed a reality, and so is the added wear. I pass, personally.

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Not sure if he has seen it intimately up close and been side by side by a proffesional engine builder (who builds 500whp Subaru engines on a regular bases) like I have when we forged my FA20 build, I'm talking excepting a higher rpm long term,......absolutely wouldn't do it, even short term. BTW thats my FA20 completely torn down on the table.

cf6mech and all have good points:

Fact: Car companies spend millions to certify and test a motor. No one is tuning my FI car to be used at 8500 rpms redline. vendors at this point all have limited experience.

Opinion: Look, I have no doubt that Visconti Tuning Inc can tune a car using Ecutek safely to make more power within the band. Why the need to try and make a dyno show VE at 8000+? We all have different goals, so lets just leave it as some prefer to exceed redline and thats fine.

e85 goals: I do sincerely respect this flex fuel technology, seriously, and its helped me put my alt. fuel goals in perspective(purely for fun and with very limited use intentions),also lets me look more objectively at my build goals overall.

Challenge: Putting whats good for the vendors vs whats good for my car in perspective. I dont fear e85, I do have some concern with the cavalier power first mentality myself.

You hit the nail in the head tho, I'm wary of anyone who tells me its good to go.

I was both relieved and happy that Vortechs engineers are in agreement with my conservatism, and focused on making power WITHIN the factory power band rather than try and show what can be done above 7400 so early on. They took explicit permission and told me we'd be testing past redline tho, so its not like it hasnt been tested out on my car.

Originally Posted by cf6mech

All e85 here, all done without Visconti (nothing against Jon but there is a cadre of tuners out there less vocal and stay off of forums), staying below 7400 and nearing 400whp, I too am looking at reliability long term,.....hence forged pistons and rods,....so I'm more than out of the box, more so than 99% of the guys going fI on this engine and I doubt very few have seen the internals of these heads as my engine builder has, and I just happened to be there at the time. He likes safe, so do I. Anything above design limits was a no go with him , and he showed me why (as that was a goal of mine),...not anymore!....so choose your own poison.

[so26]

Hello Huehuecoyotl

Could you time some 60-80mph pulls using a OBDII adapter and Torque Pro? I've asked this from a couple of other members as well; it would be nice to see how these kit translate to real world performance.

See my post in this other trend. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=194

P.S. a 80-100 run would be nice too if possible. In stock form the FR-S takes 5.7s in 4th gear.

[Supermassive]

I feel like this is a good time to chime in on the 7400+ RPM discussion. No I have not pulled my engine apart, one day I will get the desire to get in there and mess around but at the moment the engine is the least of my concerns. I am running "only" 7PSI on a turbo boosted engine with an 8500RPM redline and a 9000RPM rev limit. I've been running this kit daily since early January, with just over 4000miles on the turbo so yes it's still too early to comment on valvetrain reliability. What I do have to say is that the engine has no issues what so ever when revving up to 8500RPM and I would say that I am a lead foot so it happens quite frequently (the sound alone is worth the price). The car is a ***** cat around town and an out and out beast the second you bury the throttle. It's nice that cf6 has taken the time to have an engine builder work on his car and they convinced him to spend money on beefier parts. I used to "trust" my engine builders until I started building my own motorcycle engines and found that stock parts are always over engineered in an engine, especially a performance engine. Does that mean that they will last indefinitely, no not likely, I know I am causing more wear on the car and the internals. But to say that the dozens of tuners running 400+HP cars with redlines in excess of 7400RPM are all wrong based on the opinion of one shop is just silly.

Luckily I have the disposable income to push this motor as is and if the heads give way in any fashion I will upgrade and replace as I see fit. I am going with the general concensus that lower compression pistons and forged connecting rods are a boon since they will allow higher boost on pump gas and a more square hp to torque ratio, but the utter lack of any development of head related parts leads me to believe that no one has found a real need for them. Everything else on this car has been supported by the aftermarket so why isn't there any company pumping out parts for the head?

My 2 cents might not go a long way but I don't buy things based on the opinions of one person, no matter how good they might be at what they do. To me it sounds like cf6 has a hell of an engine but without any hard evidence to say that our heads cannot handle higher RPM's reliably then we are all just speculating. That being said I am looking forward to building up my own engine with my own two hands so I can personally see and understand what is going on in there instead of just trusting someone else to tell me what I need to spend my money on.