Race spec

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by Dark

We will have that kind of car in 2025. LOL

Fixed!

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Fixed!

How so?

[coyote]

I'd be happy to buy one with no engine, nor seats and steel wheels.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dark

How so?

Ever heard of how they're thinking of raising fuel economy standards to over 50mpg in 2025?

It's definitely possible, although with larger vehicles that might be quite tough. If thermoelectric generation or something similar works out, removing all the accessories off the engine would be possible. Starter-generators can provide a bit of regenerative braking. Better variable valve timing will give a good bump in efficiency. More biofuel=much higher compression ratios=another good bump. More aluminum, lighter weight, lower drag help too. All of this added up could bring just about any reasonably lightweight/small car over the 50mpg mark.

Another possibility is something crazy like a Mazda rotary comeback, where they manage to address reliability issues, throw valves into the "compression chamber" to get rid of pumping loss, use ceramic seals (thus eliminating the oiling problem and part of the cooling loss problem), use turbo-compounding to make up for the geometric compression limitations, use 3 spark plugs or something, etc. An engine like that could return some SERIOUS fuel economy and performance.

[4agze]

Originally Posted by RRnold

It's considered the Low Spec which is similar to what you're driving now now; a Honda Civic DX. It's not a race spec

damn how you catch that so fast lol

[Dark]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Ever heard of how they're thinking of raising fuel economy standards to over 50mpg in 2025?

It's definitely possible, although with larger vehicles that might be quite tough. If thermoelectric generation or something similar works out, removing all the accessories off the engine would be possible. Starter-generators can provide a bit of regenerative braking. Better variable valve timing will give a good bump in efficiency. More biofuel=much higher compression ratios=another good bump. More aluminum, lighter weight, lower drag help too. All of this added up could bring just about any reasonably lightweight/small car over the 50mpg mark.

Another possibility is something crazy like a Mazda rotary comeback, where they manage to address reliability issues, throw valves into the "compression chamber" to get rid of pumping loss, use ceramic seals (thus eliminating the oiling problem and part of the cooling loss problem), use turbo-compounding to make up for the geometric compression limitations, use 3 spark plugs or something, etc. An engine like that could return some SERIOUS fuel economy and performance.

Yeah CAFE standard raises to over 50mpg by 2025. It's doable, I know, but stylish, cheap, agile, powerful, fuel efficient sportcar by 2025 is not possible. I could be wrong, but... I don't know.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by coyote

I'd be happy to buy one with no engine, nor seats and steel wheels.

The seats look like one thing I actually don't NEED to touch for a change...

Although what you are doing, you will need better seats

[coyote]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

The seats look like one thing I actually don't NEED to touch for a change.

Regardless of any other issues, they appear to have continued with the trend of non-adjustable head rests that tilt way forward.

Great if you are a laid back dorifto cruiser, but back breaking if you like the seat upright, particularly when wearing a helmet.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dark

Yeah CAFE standard raises to over 50mpg by 2025. It's doable, I know, but stylish, cheap, agile, powerful, fuel efficient sportcar by 2025 is not possible. I could be wrong, but... I don't know.

Yea the price of cars is definitely going to go up because of some of this. 40mpg can be hit with cheap mods like simple aero, gears, etc. 50 will need expensive stuff like advanced engine tech, regenerative ___________ (which all cost a lot), etc. With a car like the FT, adding one extra gear in the gearbox that lowers revs 25% at cruising speed would bump highway up a few but not affect city. They could make the ass a tiny bit longer and the windshield a little steeper and the nose a little lower and that would maybe reduce C_d by like 10%, which won't really be a visible mpg change. These few changes can get any car with reasonable sized engines up to Civic/Corolla fuel economy or better.

After that would be Valvematic which probably costs more than any of the previously described changes, although it's not any more mechanically complex than i-VTEC. If Valvematic is implemented, we reach an engine efficiency limit that cannot be improved much without some sort of combined cycle (aka exhaust heat regeneration), which at that point would only see very small improvements. The fundamental design of the 4 stroke engine can't really be changed, so there isn't much that can be done about frictional loss (downsizing + forced induction is a solution, but that reduces compression ratio which is counterproductive...direct injected 2 stroke or improved rotary or something is the only way to get a significant improvement here).

Since the EPA cycle involves a lot of braking, the next step would be to add regenerative brakes, but this is quite expensive since high capacity electric motors aren't exactly cheap. To fully maximize its benefits, I imagine the valves could be turned off to reduce engine braking or something. Using a starter-generator like VW/Audi is probably a good idea, except people don't downshift into 1st when they brake all the time, so I imagine gearing would be necessary to keep the size of the motor reasonable.

After that it is an extremely tough fight to get more fuel efficiency out of a vehicle. Exhaust heat regeneration is not very promising at the moment, thermoelectrics having terrible efficiency, steam powered being quite complicated and bulky. Not to mention all of this crap is insanely expensive. C_d of a car can't realistically be reduced past a certain point because the rear end of a car can't be made into a boat tail for practical reasons, and there isn't anything that can be done about drag from wheel wells. Weight can only be cut to a certain point as well. 2025 standards are likely as far as automakers can practically achieve as far as fuel efficiency goes...by then we can expect all cars to have price tags that are 1000-2000 dollars higher than they are now (inflation adjusted).

[Dark]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Yea the price of cars is definitely going to go up because of some of this. 40mpg can be hit with cheap mods like simple aero, gears, etc. 50 will need expensive stuff like advanced engine tech, regenerative ___________ (which all cost a lot), etc. With a car like the FT, adding one extra gear in the gearbox that lowers revs 25% at cruising speed would bump highway up a few but not affect city. They could make the ass a tiny bit longer and the windshield a little steeper and the nose a little lower and that would maybe reduce C_d by like 10%, which won't really be a visible mpg change. These few changes can get any car with reasonable sized engines up to Civic/Corolla fuel economy or better.

After that would be Valvematic which probably costs more than any of the previously described changes, although it's not any more mechanically complex than i-VTEC. If Valvematic is implemented, we reach an engine efficiency limit that cannot be improved much without some sort of combined cycle (aka exhaust heat regeneration), which at that point would only see very small improvements. The fundamental design of the 4 stroke engine can't really be changed, so there isn't much that can be done about frictional loss (downsizing + forced induction is a solution, but that reduces compression ratio which is counterproductive...direct injected 2 stroke or improved rotary or something is the only way to get a significant improvement here).

Since the EPA cycle involves a lot of braking, the next step would be to add regenerative brakes, but this is quite expensive since high capacity electric motors aren't exactly cheap. To fully maximize its benefits, I imagine the valves could be turned off to reduce engine braking or something. Using a starter-generator like VW/Audi is probably a good idea, except people don't downshift into 1st when they brake all the time, so I imagine gearing would be necessary to keep the size of the motor reasonable.

After that it is an extremely tough fight to get more fuel efficiency out of a vehicle. Exhaust heat regeneration is not very promising at the moment, thermoelectrics having terrible efficiency, steam powered being quite complicated and bulky. Not to mention all of this crap is insanely expensive. C_d of a car can't realistically be reduced past a certain point because the rear end of a car can't be made into a boat tail for practical reasons, and there isn't anything that can be done about drag from wheel wells. Weight can only be cut to a certain point as well. 2025 standards are likely as far as automakers can practically achieve as far as fuel efficiency goes...by then we can expect all cars to have price tags that are 1000-2000 dollars higher than they are now (inflation adjusted).

Well written. You're right. Due to practical, safety and cost reasons neither shape of the car can't be changed too much nor weight of the car can be reduced too much.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Dark

Yeah CAFE standard raises to over 50mpg by 2025. It's doable, I know, but stylish, cheap, agile, powerful, fuel efficient sportcar by 2025 is not possible. I could be wrong, but... I don't know.

It's an average. The yaris will get 70, and the mythical supra that might be out by then will get 30, and it'll work just fine.

Alternatively, there will be exceptions. How trucks don't, or didn't, count as CAFE vehicles for a longass time. automakers could make X vehicles/models a year that didn't count against them-to allow for halo cars, etc.

[Kostamojen]

Originally Posted by coyote

Regardless of any other issues, they appear to have continued with the trend of non-adjustable head rests that tilt way forward.

Great if you are a laid back dorifto cruiser, but back breaking if you like the seat upright, particularly when wearing a helmet.

The headrests on the 2012 Impreza have an adjustable tilt feature... I hope they use that on these seats as I do know what you are talking about.

The CT200h someone in the family just bought has super-good seats but the same issue with the headrests, but I adapted pretty quickly. I still enjoy my circa 1990's Japanese WRX seats in my Impreza though, but I do have to tilt the seat back when using a helmet with those seats too.

[oneday]

I must have missed something...what car is the OP talking about? Steelies don't sound like a race trim anything, and when a car manufacturer offers a "race" version it's usually referred to as a "body in white".

Pix or link please.

[Neutral_Eyes]

Originally Posted by oneday

I must have missed something...what car is the OP talking about? Steelies don't sound like a race trim anything, and when a car manufacturer offers a "race" version it's usually referred to as a "body in white".

Pix or link please.

The barebones model on the bottom of the page.