Forget it... I'm doing springs and shocks... not coilovers...

[Sam Strano]

Also, and I want to reiterate this. Koni, that Koni developed for this car are NOT out yet. While some are using a Koni damper, it's not the one developed by Koni for this car. They are using generic motorsport Koni's and adapting them to the car.

FWIW, I really wish folks would do a bit more research on these kind of things. I've dynoed a setup done the same way for an RX7 and the curves weren't, well curves so much as waves. Consider other things like warranty too.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

Tell me why my car doesn't push (you can watch me drive it if you want, there is video of it) with 15% stiffer fronts than rears AND the front bar?

What's more, I'm not manipulating the results with crazy camber splits either, I run only about -.25 more degrees in front than the rear. I guess I'm meaning to point out it's not like I'm getting balance running -2.5F, -1R. In fact I'm only running about -2.25 front with the option for more should I want it.

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. We aren't talking about a nose-heavy Subaru with a lousy camber curve here. What you'd think on paper isn't always the case in reality. The rear suspension is sticky on this car for one.

Tell me how I got a 2001 Camaro to turn on 600/150 springs with a 35mm front bar, 22mm bar when they were pushy on the stock springs and bars that were 292/115 and 30/19 (or an optional setup of 360/180 and 32/19 bar). You'd think that car would have pushed like a tank, right? Well, there is video on my site of it too.... I think a picture (moving in this case) is worth a thousand words.

sounds like the rear of that car was getting familiar with the near infinitely stiff rates that the bumpstops on the back end. that combined with how far foward the weight on a camaro is might have a little to do with it. i think its important for people to know that stock cars are almost always designed to corner on the bumpstops. a spring rate increase will often improve ride quality for that reason. i am also curious to see what the motion ratios are in the camaro.

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

So what I am getting out of this sway bar discussion is the typical behavior expected when upgrading sway bars and spring stiffness don't apply to this car for some reason.

So what are the rules now? How do we make educated guesses/decisions. Rely on what people have actually tested on the track I guess?

So 22 mm / stock rear does not push? How does this combo feel? What would be a better combo if any?

the rules are the same and always will be. the change is in what many of these subaru drivers are driving. with only two wheels driving instead of four, its much more important to keep the rear wheels on the ground than it is to keep them on the same plane.

Originally Posted by stevan

Why didn't you consider getting the ground control kit ? Almost the same price for the street kit, uses custom valved koni singled with eibach springs and height adjustment for $200 more?

I get your point about only adjusting height once but springs always look lopsided, nice to have that fine adjustment I guess and room for wider wheels. Either way your setup is great nonetheless Nd looking forward to some pictures !

ground controls are great for some things but not for others. it is really nice to have the ability to corner balance your car. on the other hand, it is really bad to add all that weight of an additional perch on the outside of your shock on the outside corners of a car, especially when its kinda unsprung weight.

[fatoni]

looks like a pretty decent model for a street build. the only thing i would suggest is that you pick a tire size and work from there instead of the other way around. i would imagine that a 245 rs3 or nt01 would generate more grip that a setup like that would want. not a big deal but your closing doors you havent even arrived at yet.

[RYU]

@seven - from a performance perspective that's the best $1100 you'll spend. Though after putting over 100 track miles on my rce yellows yesterday and your goal of wanting a neutral setup, I question your judgment on the 22mm front sway bar. That would be understeer city for me...
@Turn in Concepts - I know you guys track your 86; can you comment on the rce/koni setup with various tires? Say...hankook rs3 or even nt01s?? I really enjoyed my rce yellows and stock dampers with the prius tires but I'm curious if I'd want more spring stiffness/damping with stickier tires.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by RYU

@seven - from a performance perspective that's the best $1100 you'll spend. Though after putting over 100 track miles on my rce yellows yesterday and your goal of wanting a neutral setup, I question your judgment on the 22mm front sway bar. That would be understeer city for me...
@Turn in Concepts - I know you guys track your 86; can you comment on the rce/koni setup with various tires? Say...hankook rs3 or even nt01s?? I really enjoyed my rce yellows and stock dampers with the prius tires but I'm curious if I'd want more spring stiffness/damping with stickier tires.

My plans or at least my philosphy for the suspension are pretty similar to seven's. For me, I'm planing to install most of the parts, wait for the stock tires to die and then upgrade them. Once I get a feel for things with sticky tires, on the street, I'll do the fine tuning with sway bars. Honestly with how much I'm changing, RCE yellows, bushings and more adjustment, I really don't know how the car will feel when it's all done. I can make some educated guesses, but I'll let experience tell the tale.

[phm14]

Originally Posted by TouchMyHonda

Buy quality coilovers and proper camber adjustable components and call it a day. Idk how coilover = hard parker.

That's my take. Buy once, cry once.

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

I'm not saying that none of the rules apply. Just that it's not so black and white, there is a LOT involved in making a car balanced and driveable.

An FR-S is a pretty nervous little beast. That's what I have. The Subaru is tuned to be a bit more forgiving and stable, and that's no secret. But did you notice that when magazines drive them, they don't say the Subaru is a pushy pig and the Scion is loose as hell? Well, some say the Scion is a big, shall we say, free (and I'd agree).

What were the "rules" before, and on what car? Sure if you put a massive front bar on and nothing else, it's going to understeer at the limit. I'm not advocating a massive front bar. Bars and springs both add wheel rate, so if you must keep an eye on how much of each you adding and where.

My car doesn't push with my hollow 22 front and a stock rear.... and I'm running stiffer front springs than rears too.

My opinion was based on the Whiteline 22mm solid bar which was my understanding that a solid bar would cause more understeer than a 22mm hollow one. If i'm wrong here please correct me i'm still thinking with a solid bar the 20mm is the way to go.

[JoeBoxer]

Also quoted from another thread about the Koni's GC are using, it's not an off the shelf damper according to this post.

Originally Posted by GC86

Ground Control certainly does not want to hijack a thread about MCS, after all we sell those struts and shocks also.

I can't blame anyone for assuming that GC just uses a "generic race insert", because it is hard to understand how much testing could be done by some, while others are preordering off-the-shelf street Konis.

GC has been fortunate to be able to do extensive testing, because we had Koni build special strut inserts in Holland, and they are already here. We did not have to wait for anything to arrive in February or March.

Attached below are 4 different FT86 struts, including Koni race and Koni SPGC custom valving.

I will continue this in another thread, so it doesn't hijack Lex and Jerome any more than necessary to clarify.

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

My opinion was based on the Whiteline 22mm solid bar which was my understanding that a solid bar would cause more understeer than a 22mm hollow one. If i'm wrong here please correct me i'm still thinking with a solid bar the 20mm is the way to go.

A solid bar is slightly stiffer than a hollow one the same size. So yes a solid 22 is stiffer than mine. And I wanted it that way, because I think a solid 22 on a stock car is too much, and once on coil-overs we can do what we want with spring rates anyway... and on a small light car you don't want a massive bar because it's not heavy enough to not have it effect (or is affect, I never get that right) the ride.

There is more too it than just the size and solid or not. The wall thickness fo the bar comes into play. And if nothing else a hollow bar doesn't weigh as much...

Why do you think a solid 20 is the way to go over a thin wall hollow 22? I mean I don't care that much, it's not like bars make me rich, in fact I make more on a Whiteline bar than I do on my own (because I was trying to offer a value and lightweight bar)....

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

A solid bar is slightly stiffer than a hollow one the same size. So yes a solid 22 is stiffer than mine. And I wanted it that way, because I think a solid 22 on a stock car is too much, and once on coil-overs we can do what we want with spring rates anyway... and on a small light car you don't want a massive bar because it's not heavy enough to not have it effect (or is affect, I never get that right) the ride.

There is more too it than just the size and solid or not. The wall thickness fo the bar comes into play. And if nothing else a hollow bar doesn't weigh as much...

Why do you think a solid 20 is the way to go over a thin wall hollow 22? I mean I don't care that much, it's not like bars make me rich, in fact I make more on a Whiteline bar than I do on my own (because I was trying to offer a value and lightweight bar)....

I didn't say the solid 20mm would be a better option but he had the solid 22mm Whiteline bar listed in the OP which i thought was too much and would have recommended either your 22mm or the Whiteline 20mm. Sorry for the confusion!!

[Sam Strano]

As for the damper thing. I've heard this before on the FC RX7 that had such a kit. Yes they had a specific part number... and we could not get any valving information from them. We had to dyno them ourselves to find a very wavy and inconsistent curve. Those were replaced with a set of 8610 Road race inserts in that car (the customer's choice, he's a pretty smart engineer who designs fun government stuff).

I've been doing lots of testing too, I've had coil-overs on my car since about 2 weeks after picking in up on 6/2/12. I found that I don't need anything custom damping wise with the range the stuff I picked has... and I get a lifetime warranty and stainless steel bodies too. Also let's not forget that some companies have even tried to make their own shocks, and that didn't last either. I've been through this with various cars, RX7's, Mustangs, you name it. In the end my track record, personally, is pretty damned good. I used to sell the brand being talked about here, I stopped despite it being something that I didn't have to work hard to sell because I was sick and tired of being bucked on what I wanted for spring rates and ridiculous long lead times. I even started buying indirectly hoping the other company would have better luck. Nope. Now maybe things have changed on that front, but the simple fact is we all sell parts. We all want you to believe what we do is best, myself included. I've just been around long enough and see enough of my customers face to fact at events to know that I have to justify what I do. And what better way is there than proving you can win? What else can I do? The proof is in the pudding, no? I don't like a rear high rate setup, but others do. Ok... I'd say that each customer needs to think about things carefully and consider why each shop is doing what they are doing. Maybe even TALK to the various vendors to gain some insight. I'm glad to explain why I do what I do... and I bet when you hear it, it'll make perfect sense.

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

I didn't say the solid 20mm would be a better option but he had the solid 22mm Whiteline bar listed in the OP which i thought was too much and would have recommended either your 22mm or the Whiteline 20mm. Sorry for the confusion!!

That's good because I'm really confused now.

My bar is in between those two, basically. I think any of them will work with balance springs, it's a matter of fine balance. I can't see the future, even a change in tires can alter that enough to make a tweak.... my bar is in the middle. When in doubt I tend to go down the middle.

But I swore you said "i'm still thinking with a solid bar the 20mm is the way to go."

[SubieNate]

@Sam Strano On this car, do you think it's best to tune the suspension using the stock sways as much as possible and then adjust the sways to fix any deficiencies with your desired spring rates? I've heard varying opinions on how to utilize sways in tuning but one that made a lot of sense to me was to save them for fine tuning at the end so that they a. don't cover up poor front/rear balance in the springs and dampers and b. don't cause inside wheel lift because the sway is too strong for the spring rate for serious driving.

Thoughts? For a street car sways are a good way to bump up the handling feel without sacrificing a large amount of comfort (Flatter cornering with the same spring rates) but at 10/10's this likely isn't the best way to tune.

Cheers
Nathan

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

That's good because I'm really confused now.

My bar is in between those two, basically. I think any of them will work with balance springs, it's a matter of fine balance. I can't see the future, even a change in tires can alter that enough to make a tweak.... my bar is in the middle. When in doubt I tend to go down the middle.

But I swore you said "i'm still thinking with a solid bar the 20mm is the way to go."

Sorry my thought was just that the solid 22 was too much on its own, if he is set on the whiteline I would go with the 20mm. I'm considering your front bar myself as I think it's a good option for most of us that don't need a bigger rear bar.