Forget it... I'm doing springs and shocks... not coilovers...

[GTB/ZR-1]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Good man. Very good man. People buying coilovers are usually hardparkers who just want to slam the car...true enthusiasts spring for high dollar coilovers if they need that kind of valving and adjustability. The layman will be fine with GOOD dampers and springs, like the Koni & RCE combo. Bravo to you, sir, bravo.

+ a bazillion lol

[Turn in Concepts]

We have been running the Koni/RCE setup with AST camber plates for a while now and love it. It has a perfect balance with -2.7* of camber front and -1.8 rear 0 toe front and +.15 toe rear. Wouldn't change a thing!

Tony

[Calum]

My plans are very similar to the OP's, but with the addition of rear camber adjustment and replacing every stock bushing I can. I'm waiting to see what comes from Bilstein and I'm holding off on sway bars for now.

I really wasn't sure about the yellows as I was worried they would be too stiff and too low. But, I feel the stock front springs are much too soft for the car. I had talked to RCE a while ago and we both concluded I'd be a good candidate for regular guy springs, but the more I thought about it the more I don't think there will be a black spring for this car. The difference between the ~215# of the stock FRS rear spring and the 250# of the RCE's just doesn't leave room for something in between. So, I've decided to go with the Yellows.

Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts

We have been running the Koni/RCE setup with AST camber plates for a while now and love it. It has a perfect balance with -2.7* of camber front and -1.8 rear 0 toe front and +.15 toe rear. Wouldn't change a thing!

Tony

Tony, I like the idea of the WL Com-c top hats as they shouldn't knock or rattle, how have the AST plates been? How long have you been running them?

[seven]

Originally Posted by Grimlock

I'm planning on something similar for pretty much the same reasons. But instead of a sway bar, I'm going to get the Whiteline rear camber bushings. That way I can put the camber where I want it.
I figure I'll drive the car for a while and then decide if I want sway bars to adjust the liveliness of the rear.

Not a bad plan as well

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Half of the RCE facebook posts are beer related....

I've noticed this

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

There are certainly advantages (and some disadvantages) to good coilovers. Good coilovers can be awesome for certain users when set up right if you're willing to put up with the cost and/or time of going through all of it. But one of my problems is when people simply assume that coilovers, any coilovers at all, are automatically better for everyone than anything else.

Compared to a similarly priced coilover, the Koni + RCE Yellow set-up gives up height adjustability for a much higher quality damper. IMO that's a much more important priority as it's the foundation for the suspension and VERY noticeable on real world roads.

Yes you get stiffer springs with budget coilovers...but do you want stiff springs on a poor damper for a 90% street car? Eh. I'd rather a fast, FUN, reliable and simple shock + springs combo.

- Andrew

It seems to me like a lot of people forgot springs and shocks as separates existed because no on had shocks out yet, so a lot of vendors and enthusiasts are/were pushing coilovers.
I've done the coilover thing, I've done the spring/shock combo thing.
Ultimately, I've learned over the years my own tastes and this combo suits them.

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer

I would stick with the 20mm whiteline adjustable, 22 is pretty big for just replacing the front unless you went with the hollow 22 Strano bar.

He can change his mind if he likes, but I think the 22mm is the right move here. He wanted bigger, I'd not recommend smaller, not with those spring rates.

I've said this once, I will say it again. I think it's kind of nuts that most everyone is running higher rear rate than front. I run the exact opposite, WITH my hollow 22mm bar. The OP will be running equal rates front to rear, so I think a bit more front bar is appropriate, but 1" is far too much. MHO.

[TouchMyHonda]

Buy quality coilovers and proper camber adjustable components and call it a day. Idk how coilover = hard parker.

[seven]

Originally Posted by TouchMyHonda

Buy quality coilovers and proper camber adjustable components and call it a day. Idk how coilover = hard parker.

Nothing wrong with this per se, but its more costly for similar performance is all. If you don't need height adjustment, I don't see a downside.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

He can change his mind if he likes, but I think the 22mm is the right move here. He wanted bigger, I'd not recommend smaller, not with those spring rates.

I've said this once, I will say it again. I think it's kind of nuts that most everyone is running higher rear rate than front. I run the exact opposite, WITH my hollow 22mm bar. The OP will be running equal rates front to rear, so I think a bit more front bar is appropriate, but 1" is far too much. MHO.

The spring rates hes running are much higher in the front then stock and given the motion ratios are stiffer in the front then the back. Given the extra weight over the front wheels this should lead to just a little understeer. Wouldnt a higher front rate cause more understeer?

Sent from mission control

[Sam Strano]

Originally Posted by Calum

The spring rates hes running are much higher in the front then stock and given the motion ratios are stiffer in the front then the back. Given the extra weight over the front wheels this should lead to just a little understeer. Wouldnt a higher front rate cause more understeer?

Sent from mission control

Tell me why my car doesn't push (you can watch me drive it if you want, there is video of it) with 15% stiffer fronts than rears AND the front bar?

What's more, I'm not manipulating the results with crazy camber splits either, I run only about -.25 more degrees in front than the rear. I guess I'm meaning to point out it's not like I'm getting balance running -2.5F, -1R. In fact I'm only running about -2.25 front with the option for more should I want it.

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. We aren't talking about a nose-heavy Subaru with a lousy camber curve here. What you'd think on paper isn't always the case in reality. The rear suspension is sticky on this car for one.

Tell me how I got a 2001 Camaro to turn on 600/150 springs with a 35mm front bar, 22mm bar when they were pushy on the stock springs and bars that were 292/115 and 30/19 (or an optional setup of 360/180 and 32/19 bar). You'd think that car would have pushed like a tank, right? Well, there is video on my site of it too.... I think a picture (moving in this case) is worth a thousand words.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Sam Strano

Tell me why my car doesn't push (you can watch me drive it if you want, there is video of it) with 15% stiffer fronts than rears AND the front bar?

What's more, I'm not manipulating the results with crazy camber splits either, I run only about -.25 more degrees in front than the rear. I guess I'm meaning to point out it's not like I'm getting balance running -2.5F, -1R. In fact I'm only running about -2.25 front with the option for more should I want it.

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. We aren't talking about a nose-heavy Subaru with a lousy camber curve here. What you'd think on paper isn't always the case in reality. The rear suspension is sticky on this car for one.

Tell me how I got a 2001 Camaro to turn on 600/150 springs with a 35mm front bar, 22mm bar when they were pushy on the stock springs and bars that were 292/115 and 30/19 (or an optional setup of 360/180 and 32/19 bar). You'd think that car would have pushed like a tank, right? Well, there is video on my site of it too.... I think a picture (moving in this case) is worth a thousand words.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation and the contribution of your experience. Things like this are invaluable especially when most of what out there is just utter BS.

[sw20kosh]

So what I am getting out of this sway bar discussion is the typical behavior expected when upgrading sway bars and spring stiffness don't apply to this car for some reason.

So what are the rules now? How do we make educated guesses/decisions. Rely on what people have actually tested on the track I guess?

So 22 mm / stock rear does not push? How does this combo feel? What would be a better combo if any?

[Sam Strano]

I'm not saying that none of the rules apply. Just that it's not so black and white, there is a LOT involved in making a car balanced and driveable.

An FR-S is a pretty nervous little beast. That's what I have. The Subaru is tuned to be a bit more forgiving and stable, and that's no secret. But did you notice that when magazines drive them, they don't say the Subaru is a pushy pig and the Scion is loose as hell? Well, some say the Scion is a big, shall we say, free (and I'd agree).

What were the "rules" before, and on what car? Sure if you put a massive front bar on and nothing else, it's going to understeer at the limit. I'm not advocating a massive front bar. Bars and springs both add wheel rate, so if you must keep an eye on how much of each you adding and where.

My car doesn't push with my hollow 22 front and a stock rear.... and I'm running stiffer front springs than rears too.

[stevan]

Why didn't you consider getting the ground control kit ? Almost the same price for the street kit, uses custom valved koni singled with eibach springs and height adjustment for $200 more?

I get your point about only adjusting height once but springs always look lopsided, nice to have that fine adjustment I guess and room for wider wheels. Either way your setup is great nonetheless Nd looking forward to some pictures !

[seven]

Originally Posted by stevan

Why didn't you consider getting the ground control kit ? Almost the same price for the street kit, uses custom valved koni singled with eibach springs and height adjustment for $200 more?

I get your point about only adjusting height once but springs always look lopsided, nice to have that fine adjustment I guess and room for wider wheels. Either way your setup is great nonetheless Nd looking forward to some pictures !

$200 more and it doesn't get you a sway bar, or camber bolts, nor a rear camber kit.

Nothing wrong with GC, I just decided it's not the route I wanted to go.

*edit* Sam posted the real reasons below, I was trying to be *nice* per se.