PICS: Updated Toyota FT-86 II Concept at 2011 Frankfurt IAA

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Hi everybody, new member here. Have been lurking for a while but decided to join today.

The colour on the concept is really nice and I think the car looks great in it, especially the rear.

Not sure if this has been said before, but I've noticed in the picture above it shows that the steering system has a column mounted electric motor just like in a corolla.

http://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehic...ts/performance

I remember reading about this somewhere that mounting the electric motor higher up the steering column reduces steering feel because the motor filters out more of the mechanical feeling. My current car, a Golf GTI also has electric steering but it has the motor mounted on the steering rack itself. Steering accuracy and feel seem to be one of the main appeal of the FT86, so it has got me thinking will this setup diminish that aspect of the vehicle.

Thanks for reading and I hope I haven't bored anybody or said anything stupid.

Good catch, I think that electronic power steering is a valid concern. It seems possible based on that picture that the ft86 will use a similar system to the Corolla, which seems like a really terrible system.

This article goes into a lot more detail about the system
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ower-steering/

That is definitely a good reason to wait for the reviews of this car to come out before buying one. Numb steering feel would ruin this car for me.

Based on the descriptions on JTEKT's website, it looks like it may be pinion mounted and not column mounted
http://www.jtekt.co.jp/e/products/steering01.html

Pinion type EPS Outline

• The power-assist unit is attached to the pinion shaft of the steering gear.
• The power-assist unit is located in the engine compartment, eliminating concern about passenger compartment noise and allowing the use of higher assist forces.
• This steering system excels in handling characteristics, and application of a variable-ratio steering gear enables the use of compact motors.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Hi everybody, new member here. Have been lurking for a while but decided to join today.

The colour on the concept is really nice and I think the car looks great in it, especially the rear.

Not sure if this has been said before, but I've noticed in the picture above it shows that the steering system has a column mounted electric motor just like in a corolla.

http://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehic...ts/performance

I remember reading about this somewhere that mounting the electric motor higher up the steering column reduces steering feel because the motor filters out more of the mechanical feeling. My current car, a Golf GTI also has electric steering but it has the motor mounted on the steering rack itself. Steering accuracy and feel seem to be one of the main appeal of the FT86, so it has got me thinking will this setup diminish that aspect of the vehicle.

Thanks for reading and I hope I haven't bored anybody or said anything stupid.

Wow, heck of an intro post Kiwi.

How does this compare to the RX-8's electric steering?

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by pastuch

Wow... this guy is a real hater. Seriously, is there any car in development that he is happy with? I will be flabbergasted if the production version of this car looks even close to as good as the mk 1,2 or 3. It's a Toyota so I'm expecting ugly! They haven't made a good looking car since the Mk IV Supra.

He makes good points about the Mk2 that I hate. Mk3 should be the inspiration for the production car. It even looks much better than a Mk4 Supra IMHO.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Wow, heck of an intro post Kiwi.

How does this compare to the RX-8's electric steering?

RX-8 uses a rack mount system from Showa (same as used on the S2000). Their systems are fine, it seems like it is only the JTEKT column mounted systems that people complain about. JTEKT is a Toyota company.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

I remember reading about this somewhere that mounting the electric motor higher up the steering column reduces steering feel because the motor filters out more of the mechanical feeling. My current car, a Golf GTI also has electric steering but it has the motor mounted on the steering rack itself. Steering accuracy and feel seem to be one of the main appeal of the FT86, so it has got me thinking will this setup diminish that aspect of the vehicle.

Great 1st post!


Here's my thoughts on electrically assisted steering: With the electric motor closer to the driver, there's more of the total steering systems' mass between the motor and the wheels. This means there's more inertia, and thus the motor would have to have stronger force to overcome things like vibrations and kick-back. It's completely up to the calibrator how much "bad feedback" is acceptable [keep in mind "bad feedback" can actually improve driver satisfaction and confidence].

IMO, all electrically-boosted steering systems should benchmark the Honda S2000. The GTI's [assuming you have a Mk6] steering feel is rather mediocre; it provides some good feedback but mainly only when the suspension is loaded up near the limit; simply tracking straight down the highway it's rather on the bad side. This is coming from someone that owned a '10 GTI and currently DD's an '11 Golf TDI. However, this starts another subject because steering feel is primarily a function of geometry and the power assistance can either transmit or mask the feel, but not improve it. There are much better steering cars out there, and if the steering feel on the production FT-86 is anywhere near the Mk6 Golf/GTI, Toyota will have a dud on their hands because Japanese sports cars historically have quite good steering feel.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

Good catch, I think that electronic power steering is a valid concern. It seems possible based on that picture that the ft86 will use a similar system to the Corolla, which seems like a really terrible system.

This article goes into a lot more detail about the system
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ower-steering/

That is definitely a good reason to wait for the reviews of this car to come out before buying one. Numb steering feel would ruin this car for me.

Based on the descriptions on JTEKT's website, it looks like it may be pinion mounted and not column mounted
http://www.jtekt.co.jp/e/products/steering01.html

The comments in this blog post from Insideline also address the issues with steering feel, but this time it's in the context of a rear-mounted steering rack vs a forward-mounted one. The forward-mounted front brake calipers seem to indicate a rear-mounted steering rack, which usually doesn't do any favors for steering feel.
If Toyota is really serious about making this an involving car, I hope they did their homework with the steering system.

[Jordo!]

What color is that? Tangerine?

I want the Scion concept

Originally Posted by fernan2

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8640/ft86hate.jpg

Funny and sad all at once...

[MiguelAE86]

My opinion on this electric steering issue mounted up high in the pinion:
Honestly guys, do you think that engineers making this car (said to never be so much R&D in such a low-budget car) are going to overlook something so crutial to a fun car: Steering Feel? I mean, c'mon these are the people that gave J-Land the AE86 and many other fun little sports-cars AND have a joint-partnership with LOTUS for god's sake.

I think you're under-estimating Toyota and Mr.Toyoda along with the FT86 engineering department.

Oh, and i didn't even mention Subaru. Really guys? have some faith!

[Kage]

Idk...I don't like the scion fr-s concept. Yeah the geneva concept might have been a tad over done,
but using that for the inspiration of the production model would produce the best car IMO.

Also people keep knocking the led fog lights. They look a million times better than the setup the test mule has.
I mean really...turn signals above the fog lights when they could have just put them in the leds in the head lights.


vs



















Now what they should do is what the guys in the unmasking thread did....normal fog lights and
toyota should use the leds in the headlights for turning signals....
if they don't I might have to just wire it up my self

[fernan2]

Originally Posted by Hachiroku

Here is the FT-86 II Concept which is being shown at the 2011 Frankfurt IAA. It's the same concept II as previously shown, just in a different color (one that will be a production color).

No new info, unfortunately, but look for the Toyota FT-86 to be revealed at the 2011 Tokyo Motor Show coming in early December!

[u2b]nVCHovmajoI[/u2b]

so what do you personaly think of the concept? i know i like it, but not love it.

[serialk11r]

Yea I think fog lights should be in a simple pattern/shape in the usual place, this curved string is like wuuuuut. The white one Kage posted is perfect.

I also hope they get those back lights good, they made them shorter, which I really didn't like. I hope they can pull off that look.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by MiguelAE86

My opinion on this electric steering issue mounted up high in the pinion:
Honestly guys, do you think that engineers making this car (said to never be so much R&D in such a low-budget car) are going to overlook something so crutial to a fun car: Steering Feel? I mean, c'mon these are the people that gave J-Land the AE86 and many other fun little sports-cars AND have a joint-partnership with LOTUS for god's sake.

I think you're under-estimating Toyota and Mr.Toyoda along with the FT86 engineering department.

Oh, and i didn't even mention Subaru. Really guys? have some faith!

I like what you're saying. I want to agree with what you are saying. I probably do agree with what you are saying. But it should be noted that Toyota also gave Lotus a piece-of-crap gearbox to put in Lotus cars.

Nonetheless, I am looking forward to his car and I am optimistic.

[DarthNads]

Mmm... I love the Mk2...



DAT ASS.

(Now to scrounge up 1k for the deposit...)

[PACMAN]

If production looks like this, im not so sure I will be as enthousiastic about buying it. I definitely like the more aggressive MkII. Perhaps something in between would work.

Originally Posted by Kage