Is toyota coming back?

[RRnold]

IMHO, all of the main Japanese manufactures fell off in the late 90's. This was most due to the EPA's LEV (Low Emission Vehicles) in the mid to late 90's which caused a whole new design shift. Since the US wasn't about fast cars w/turbos, this would heavily impact sales in Japan.

Now it seems as though technology has caught up and we are currently in a position to manufacture a good sports car while keeping emissions down.

Example would be Fuel Saving Technology on many of the V8 equipped cars. GM had that idea back in the 70's fuel crisis but it wasn't quite successful.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/article...on-Saves-Fuel/

This is definitely a nice step for Toyota who seemed to put their best foot forward before the rest. Hopefully this will help introduce or resurrect some of the ol skool favorites.

[82mm 4g63]

Blame gasoline prices. If 87octane was still at $1.00 a gallon I guarantee no one's talking about fuel economy and cutting back on the use of fossil fuels.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Every generation thinks that the end is nigh in terms of exciting automotive products and every generation is wrong.

However, the automotive market is cyclic....for a long time american made vehicles were king, popular, everybody loved them....then imports took over in the late 60's to the 2000's, and now american vehicles are coming back. It's just one of those strange cyclic patterns that happens with people.

Apart from the occasional awesome car (hoping that the FT-86 is one but not convinced) I don't think Toyota is going to come back for a good long while. The quality is slipping, the styling is going down the drain, and cost cutting in the name of greater market share has reduced quality and competitiveness. (that's why things cycle....you can't stay on top forever)

Things will get worse before they get better.

And for those people who think that hybrids and fuel economy spell the doom of exciting cars: look around. There's more exciting cars now than at any time in automotive history. Hybrids and diesels aren't going to change that. Either is engine downsizing.

Quality is falling, but just barely. Lexus is still head and shoulders above every other brand according to JDP&A and Toyota is only behind Honda/Acura, MB, Mazda, and Porsche. (Mazda is surprising) American companies are still pulling up the rear. Hyundai leap frogged about a dozen companies and is now ahead of Subaru, BMW, Chevy, Volvo, Lincoln, Audi, Jaguar, Nissan and Ford.

As far as modern exciting cars go, I respectfully disagree. Which cars are you referring to? The Eastern Asian automakers have killed off more excitement than they've added. Currently we have 370z, GTR, IS-F, tC(meh), Evo, Mazdaspeed 3, Genesis Coupe, WRX/STI. I guess you could add the LFA despite it's unattainableness(word?) and the future of the Evo is grim. In the 90's/00's we had 240S, 300Z, Skyline, MR2, Celica, Supra, Eclipse, Evo, 3000GT, RX7, WRX/STI, Integra, Prelude, NSX. And I'm sure I'm leaving a few out.

Even with the addition of a couple new names, like the GC, we're getting gimped versions. If it wasn't for Hyundai's vision of 50mpg across the board by 2025 they would've already slapped the 420hp v8 in the GC. Mazda would probably already have an RX7 successor out if it wasn't for it's lack of fuel economy. Honda is offering the CR-Z? Far from exciting. One minute Mitsubishi is discontinuing the Evo name, the next they're talking about making it a hybrid or diesel-turbo platform. Toyota had two paths they could've taken to add excitement to their lineup. They took the less aggressive, more economical one. I don't know about you, but bringing back the Supra would've been a hell of a lot more exciting for me than the FT86 is. Fuel economy is definitely cutting the legs out from under the automakers.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by LexusFman

Hippies aren't the problem. True hippies (atleast the ones I know) hate hybrids because the processes involved with making the batteries are so damaging to the environment. The people who buy hybrids are eco-bandwaggon jumpers who wanna have their eco-swagg. Real environmentalists hate these people because they undermine environmentalism and when the next big thing corporate america wants to rape comes along people will forget about their prius. What we need is a renewable fuel source that doesn't eat into our food supply that is capable of fueling the world, not shoving hybrids down everyones throats. I mean who LIKES hybrids anyway?

Uh no. The brainwashed hippies that want to kill everybody maybe. There are studies that show that the consumption of Oil over a car's lifetime far exceeds the emissions/energy consumption of manufacturing the whole car. The production of batteries pays for itself in reducing Oil consumption which is the biggest offender. Except for the Prius and the HSD cars and the mild Honda hybrids most of the hybrid cars are performance hybrids and get little or no MPG improvement over their ICE only versions.

Not a big fan of hybrids myself since you can get the most of the MPG by just using a similar displacement engine with a turbo and taller gearing. As it is cheaper upfront it pays off faster and it doesn't require eliminating the standard gearbox to get higher MPG numbers. Most people could greatly reduce their Oil consumption if they switched from DD a truck or SUV to something more efficient.

And I doubt that Toyota is going to return to their "glory days" with just one or two cars(if the hybrid RR car pans out). Especially considering this car is half Subaru (no hate). It's going to take revamping some of the soft autocars to get something like that. I'd call it a minor renaissance event if anything.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by kuruma

Supra wasn't a fun car to you? That didnt stop production for years after, even if it was only 3 years in the US and 7 in other countries.

I didn't dislike the Supra, but I didn't love the Supra. I personally didn't find it engaging enough to love it. For me, once the MR2 died (in the US).. so did Toyota.

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I didn't dislike the Supra, but I didn't love the Supra. I personally didn't find it engaging enough to love it. For me, once the MR2 died (in the US).. so did Toyota.

Wow. The Supra is still my all time favorite car. I would give both of my cars, and a baby toe for a low mileage 98 Black on Black Supra.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I love that car!!!!!

I've driven that car and it is nice indeed. If Lotus could sort out their horrifying build quality issues, and forget about supercar pricing, they could really be in the game. But it appears that that is not going to happen. It appears that they are hell bent on being empire builders, not car builders.


The FT-86 could be a very competitive car. I just don't know how it's going to have quality build and parts at a proposed $23-26k price point.


As for Toyota as a 21 century car maker: They lost everything they had when they went for sales above all else. Being the largest car manufacturer in the world isn't going to count for much ("GM, call your office!") if the cars are caca-doodoo. Since they are Japanese, maybe they will come to their senses, and recovery from their American money fever, and remember their pride, and come back from the edge.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Marrk

I've driven that car and it is nice indeed. If Lotus could sort out their horrifying build quality issues, and forget about supercar pricing, they could really be in the game. But it appears that that is not going to happen. It appears that they are hell bent on being empire builders, not car builders.


The FT-86 could be a very competitive car. I just don't know how it's going to have quality build and parts at a proposed $23-26k price point.


As for Toyota as a 21 century car maker: They lost everything they had when they went for sales above all else. Being the largest car manufacturer in the world isn't going to count for much ("GM, call your office!") if the cars are caca-doodoo. Since they are Japanese, maybe they will come to their senses, and recovery from their American money fever, and remember their pride, and come back from the edge.

See now, this is easy, all I have to do is change your statement to:

The Honda CR-Z could be a very competitive car. If they swapped in a K20 and raised the price to $23k to reflect the added cost. I just don't know that I would pay $23k, for a souped up version of a $18k car even if it was RWD too.

And suddenly it makes sense. The rest of the car is probably going to be cheap to make the whole car affordable. I don't think they will cut reliability but they're leaning more on the quality of the Subaru Gunma plant for the actual building instead of a Toyota plant.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Every generation thinks that the end is nigh in terms of exciting automotive products and every generation is wrong.

However, the automotive market is cyclic....for a long time american made vehicles were king, popular, everybody loved them....then imports took over in the late 60's to the 2000's, and now american vehicles are coming back. It's just one of those strange cyclic patterns that happens with people.

True that the automotive cycle coincides with economic cycles (after all, the 90s Japanese cars like the Supra coincided with the bubble).

But the emphasis fuel-efficient cars isn't a cycle--it's a Federal mandate. With Obama and the EPA pushing for higher and higher MPG standards, car companies can't afford to release gas-guzzling sports cars, regardless of the economic climate.

[Marrk]

@ Allch: I get your point (I think). Perhaps I was thinking of the s2k. Perhaps I was thinking that, because it was never intended to be anything other than a halo car, Honda was prepared to lose some money on it in the pursuit of quality and performance. But I don't think Toyota wants to lose any moolah on the FT-86.

_Car_ magazine has a piece on the UK market Mugen CR-Z. Just FYI. But, like I've said before, it's hard for me to put "sports car" and "front wheel drive" in the same sentence, so CR-Z doesn't enter into it, for me.


It might be a very different car world in a few years. Audi-VW-Porsche are developing a shared platform for several flat-4 roadsters. Mazda is lightening up the MX-5. Kia or Hyundai may do something. You never know.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Marrk

@ Allch: I get your point (I think). Perhaps I was thinking of the s2k. Perhaps I was thinking that, because it was never intended to be anything other than a halo car, Honda was prepared to lose some money on it in the pursuit of quality and performance. But I don't think Toyota wants to lose any moolah on the FT-86.

_Car_ magazine has a piece on the UK market Mugen CR-Z. Just FYI. But, like I've said before, it's hard for me to put "sports car" and "front wheel drive" in the same sentence, so CR-Z doesn't enter into it, for me.


It might be a very different car world in a few years. Audi-VW-Porsche are developing a shared platform for several flat-4 roadsters. Mazda is lightening up the MX-5. Kia or Hyundai may do something. You never know.

You got it!

And I already saw the Mugen CR-Z. As for the CR-Z it's a typical Honda, where stock is usually crap. The S2000/S2200(lol) was an exception.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Wow. The Supra is still my all time favorite car. I would give both of my cars, and a baby toe for a low mileage 98 Black on Black Supra.

Toyota fanboi huh? Ferrari F40 for me.

[Laika]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Toyota fanboi huh? Ferrari F40 for me.

Ferrari fanboi huh?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Laika

Ferrari fanboi huh?

Wait a second, you aren't trying to compare the Supra to a F40 are you? I'm not a Ferrari fanboi at all, if anything I align more with Porsche. However the F40 is one of the greatest pure drivers cars ever made and many say the greatest supercar ever. Unfortunately I'll never have the chance to own/drive one. But that would be my pick if we are picking old cars.

[Laika]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Wait a second, you aren't trying to compare the Supra to a F40 are you? I'm not a Ferrari fanboi at all, if anything I align more with Porsche. However the F40 is one of the greatest pure drivers cars ever made and many say the greatest supercar ever. Unfortunately I'll never have the chance to own/drive one. But that would be my pick if we are picking old cars.

Definitely a good choice. An italian v8 with the sonorous sounds of forced induction

But read your last sentence. That's your pick, not everyones. I think a Ferrari F40 would put an equally big grin on my face while driving it as the Supra, FD rx7, R33 skyline, etc etc. It's really just down to preference.

Although I might be smiling a bit bigger in the F40 due to the looks on everybody's face as I drive by...