Email from Key Toyota Engineer regarding FT86

[Matador]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Nope. Any official sources to confirm this anyone? Is he the engineer for the car as a joint project or the car as a toyota?

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Mostly I'm interested in what this means for the WRX. With news circulating that the WRX is being split off from the normal Impreza line (for example, Subaru is continuing to sell the CURRENT gen WRX and STi alongside the new gen Impreza), and Subaru's exit from WRC....I think there's a good chance that we might already know the name of the Subaru Coupe's name.....especially since Subaru has been making the WRX more and more road oriented over the last generation.

Two stabs.

Impreza Coupe 2.0RS and Impreza Coupe SRX or SVX?

Originally Posted by Maxim

As for the original topic...sounds to me like a simple marketing ploy.

Never car manufacturers would not do that! Actually they do.

Scion/Toyota must understand hype and anticipation could make this car not launch well, Subaru rarely hypes the crowd but when they do they D-E-L-I-V-E-R. The magazines/editors and show room tests people will expect a lot from this car. Just like that NYAS FR-S concept, you show that to the public and people are going to want that, not what the car could be after $5k of your money in bodywork especially if your going to pay $25k for a Scion. IMHO.

Example, I sat down in a Genesis R-Spec, dead set on getting it and then realized the interior is meh and didn't get it after the test drive. Although everything us about the car was good, I went into that dealer with high expectations because of the auto shows, commercials and all the buzz.

[AIRMAX]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Yeah, I know it upsets Toyota enthusiasts to hear people talk about how most of the hardware for Toyota's new performance car is really from Subaru...but....

Most of the hardware for Toyota's new performance car is really from Subaru.

Which is fine, because Toyota's business model allowed it to make stupid amounts of money and buy part of Fuji Heavy Industries, and thereby take some creative control in terms of what Subaru works on.

Really, what it all boils down to, is that anybody can make the main physical parts. There's almost no difference between the automakers on this stuff because they've been doing it for like 100 years. The devil is in the details, and Toyota performance cars FEEL the way they do because of this. I have no doubt that regardless of who built the chassis or engine, the car, in Scion form, will feel like a toyota performance car.

It'll probably be a bit buzzy, there's probably going to be good amounts of wind and tire noise, and the steering wheel will probably get the jitters over rough roads. And all of those things are fine because apart from the wind noise, the other ones can arguably help connect the driver with the car more


Think how the boys over at Chrysler feel. Every good vehicle they make minus the Ram line of trucks.....rides on a 1 generation old Merc platform....lol

lol

Knowing a bit how Toyota and Subaru development practices...


- Toyota and Subaru have their own engineering drawings for their parts. Take that for what its worth.
Meaning its pretty much co-engineered. Suppliers are even the same. Badging and other brand specific parts are produced by each company obviously.

But the body is definitely co-engineered. Thats how it works folks.


- Suspensions, well considering Subaru's STI and performance parts are outsourced, which is COMMON. Suppliers specialise in suspensions and bits, hardly any OEM manufacturers develop and manufacture their own suspensions.... they provide the requirements, the cost budget.... the suppliers design them or they recommend products from their cataloque.... tune here and there..

Suspensions are tuned by both Toyota and Subaru. Not just by Toyota or Subaru. You telling me, either company will put their name on it without them having their say on what ride performance they want?
Subaru are 4WD specialists.... Toyota's sports cars consists of 4WD and RWD.... if anything Toyota would be leading the tuning, with Subaru's input. This car is RWD after all, and the "essence" is the 2000GT, AE86 etc.
I love Subaru, I drive one and respect them highly, but you have to realise they pale in comparison to Toyota's RWD heritage.


- Funding, is both, CO-DEVELOPED.
- Chassis/Platform is modified Impreza, which has been re-designed enough to be RWD.... Toyota engineers and Subaru engineers playing around with it to produce a new platform out of the old Impreza platform.
- Again, both companies have their own drawings for these parts.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by AIRMAX

- Chassis/Platform is modified Impreza, which has been re-designed enough to be RWD.... Toyota engineers and Subaru engineers playing around with it to produce a new platform out of the old Impreza platform.
- Again, both companies have their own drawings for these parts.

For some reason this doesn't seem right to me. What your saying is that any car is inter-related. If i took a Impreza Platform and modified/re-designed it enough.. i could have a Skyline GT-R...or modify that and have a Bugatti Veyron. So a Impreza shares the same chassis as a Ferrari because they re-designed it enough.

If the FT86 platform and the entire skeleton retains even over 50% of impreza skeleton..is it still not an impreza? If this is the way cars are made, at what point do they start distinguishing its a different chassis?

If Toyobaru says..its a new chassis..i believe its a new chassis, Drawn from hand, rendered in cad, built on computers. But the designers from both Toyota and Subaru added their expertise including performance and design characteristics of impreza and legacy, LFA, AE86, ect...

vs

Toyobaru take the pre-existing skeleton from a impreza, upload in on CAD, play around with it, and call it a new car?

[AIRMAX]

^^ of course you cant.

Re-designing a platform isnt simply making a 4WD to a RWD through change of assembly and modifying CAD. Lol, only ifs that easy, car companies will be cranking out cars every year off the same platforms.

Platform/Chassis engineering takes a long time. Your looking at around 12 months or even a bit longer, depending on evaluation results. Also depending on what is trying to be accomplished.

Toyota/Subaru collaboration saves them MILLIONS of dollars by "working" on an existing platform.

You have to realize this.

Platform sharing is GOLDMINE for OEMs as of recent times.


ALL passenger cars have a basic shape of skeleton.
Then you add in the underbody, with the 2 HUGE bars that run along from the engine bay all the way pass the RR wheel area, this is the main support of the body. The design of these bars can vary from car to car. But the Skeleton is like a template, its a very basic shape, that many cars have similar shapes. The variance will be the track width and length... and of course if its a FR engine, RR engine or MR engine....


Under body + Chassis differentiates the cars, but the skeleton shape is true to its name... skeleton.



At the very start of the FT-86 project 2 years ago, I recall Toyota/Subaru announce that the car will be based on a modified Impreza platform. From a normal person that sounds like they will modify the Impreza platform/skeleton/underbody/chassis to make it RWD....

But lol, you dont employ upto 30 engineers and give them 12+ months to simply modify it. There are metal parts that carry over, there are new reinforcements that are needed, hence development of new parts. But it still saves them a ton of MONEY by using a basic template... if you know what I mean... because that template already has been researched and its limitation and capabilities known. Most importantly, they dont have to find a new plant to produce it.... its a simple minor change in the assembly/manufacturing line and VOILA... a new chassis.

This car wouldnt be possible, if Toyota/Subaru cant use already existing heavy metal parts.... TOOLING costs in the tens of Millions for new ones. Considering this car is a NICHE market... its no Camry or Corolla where investing 100 Million on new platform will pay itself within a year...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by AIRMAX

^^ of course you cant.

Re-designing a platform isnt simply making a 4WD to a RWD through change of assembly and modifying CAD. Lol, only ifs that easy, car companies will be cranking out cars every year off the same platforms.

Platform/Chassis engineering takes a long time. Your looking at around 12 months or even a bit longer, depending on evaluation results. Also depending on what is trying to be accomplished.

Toyota/Subaru collaboration saves them MILLIONS of dollars by "working" on an existing platform.

You have to realize this.

Platform sharing is GOLDMINE for OEMs as of recent times.


ALL passenger cars have a basic shape of skeleton.
Then you add in the underbody, with the 2 HUGE bars that run along from the engine bay all the way pass the RR wheel area, this is the main support of the body. The design of these bars can vary from car to car. But the Skeleton is like a template, its a very basic shape, that many cars have similar shapes. The variance will be the track width and length... and of course if its a FR engine, RR engine or MR engine....


Under body + Chassis differentiates the cars, but the skeleton shape is true to its name... skeleton.



At the very start of the FT-86 project 2 years ago, I recall Toyota/Subaru announce that the car will be based on a modified Impreza platform. From a normal person that sounds like they will modify the Impreza platform/skeleton/underbody/chassis to make it RWD....

But lol, you dont employ upto 30 engineers and give them 12+ months to simply modify it. There are metal parts that carry over, there are new reinforcements that are needed, hence development of new parts. But it still saves them a ton of MONEY by using a basic template... if you know what I mean... because that template already has been researched and its limitation and capabilities known. Most importantly, they dont have to find a new plant to produce it.... its a simple minor change in the assembly/manufacturing line and VOILA... a new chassis.

This car wouldnt be possible, if Toyota/Subaru cant use already existing heavy metal parts.... TOOLING costs in the tens of Millions for new ones. Considering this car is a NICHE market... its no Camry or Corolla where investing 100 Million on new platform will pay itself within a year...

I understand what you're saying, but expect that you're wrong.

You are making an assumption that by making a new car, they don't want to make a new car. See what I'm getting at?

I would have to look for the exact post, but I'm pretty sure the words "all new" have been used.

This is supposed to be a LIGHTWEIGHT sports coupe, and platform sharing is generally not the way to go for this as the base "skeleton" you talk about has to be made strong (heavy) enough for the largest vehicle using the shared platform. In your example, a Legacy. This is one of the reasons for the weight of the Nissan Z car. Its FM platform was used for almost every Infinity RWD and AWD car and crossover SUV,

Opposite situation is the Miata, a dedicated single platform car, that is low sales volume, but also very light by today's standards.

Given the stated objectives of the FT86 (Light weight has been often repeated) leads me to hope that they are going the Miata route. One of the reasons that this makes sense is that the chassis will be shared by the two companies, reducing some of the cost/risk making the shared platform idea less necessary.

[Spaceywilly]

Here is what SOA Blog said:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2#post34158662

we have developed this all-new platform. Surely we will find other developments from it. But that's all we can say.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

Here is what SOA Blog said:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2#post34158662

I hate how SOA Blog always uses 'we', as if Subaru of America (the sales and service department of only one country), not FHI actually did the design work... fucksakes...

But I do expect it to be an all new chassis, and also lighter than some of the 2700 lbs projections floating around.

[PAImportTuner]

The RX-9 is going to be all-new as well right down to the all aluminum rotary 1.6L mill, but it's going to share the same chassis as the new MX-5.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Guys, instead of trying to cut him(Maxim) down, why don't you reason and speculate back telling him why he's possibly wrong? I think he is spot on with his presumptions. Just that aero, wheels, and interiors will be left to each company to alter a bit which he left out.

He's incorrect at least on one point: marketing. Marketing is handled by external agencies. Toyota and FHI use different marketing agencies. Toyota's not going to market Subaru's "Confidence in Motion" for them...

As for Toyota and Subaru being different only in aero bits, that's also unlikely. Why would Subaru release a skeleton while Toyota releases three concepts in that timeframe? Badgineered cars would cannibalize marketshare, and Subaru would be keen to alter the sheetmetal some so that there is differentiation (think difference between Camry and Lexus ES)

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Aki

He's incorrect at least on one point: marketing. Marketing is handled by external agencies. Toyota and FHI use different marketing agencies. Toyota's not going to market Subaru's "Confidence in Motion" for them...

As for Toyota and Subaru being different only in aero bits, that's also unlikely. Why would Subaru release a skeleton while Toyota releases three concepts in that timeframe? Badgineered cars would cannibalize marketshare, and Subaru would be keen to alter the sheetmetal some so that there is differentiation (think difference between Camry and Lexus ES)

Scary word that, looks like Bad-engineered instead of Badge-engineered.

Marketing isn't just the lame Scion tv ads and whatever the current "Beauty of All Wheel Drive" catchphrase happens to be. I don't believe a single agency is responsible for everything the company does. Car shows, and lousy scripted, fake speeches by Scion VPs for example...

I believe I mentioned earlier about User Generated Content. WE are a wildcard marketing tool for the car as well.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

The RX-9 is going to be all-new as well right down to the all aluminum rotary 1.6L mill, but it's going to share the same chassis as the new MX-5.

Yep, the reason why the current MX-5 is larger is because it shared platform with the RX-8..But now its going to be reverse..the MX-5 is going to have a brand new chassy being a smaller car..and the RX-9 is going to take from it..so the RX-9 will be much smaller.

[Random_Art]

Originally Posted by Aki

He's incorrect at least on one point: marketing. Marketing is handled by external agencies. Toyota and FHI use different marketing agencies. Toyota's not going to market Subaru's "Confidence in Motion" for them...

As for Toyota and Subaru being different only in aero bits, that's also unlikely. Why would Subaru release a skeleton while Toyota releases three concepts in that timeframe? Badgineered cars would cannibalize marketshare, and Subaru would be keen to alter the sheetmetal some so that there is differentiation (think difference between Camry and Lexus ES)

Excellent examples of good badge engineering are the Ford Fiesta and Focus compared to the Mazda 2 and 3.

[PAImportTuner]

Give me the Fords anyday.

Originally Posted by Random_Art

Excellent examples of good badge engineering are the Ford Fiesta and Focus compared to the Mazda 2 and 3.