Raised High Spoilers

[Semper]

I wonder how the G Sport wing would look on the mule

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Semper

I wonder how the G Sport wing would look on the mule

Lol who cares? I want to know what it looks like on mine lol.

[serialk11r]

Regarding the wing, yesterday I did a good bit of reading on aerodynamics, and I think it's hard to say. If they give the underbody a relatively flat panel with well designed diffuser, it can reduce lift much more than a wing can (obviously a wing would be extra help). Before anyone says that won't be the case since you can't really see a large diffuser on the bottom, from what I read, a diffuser can only slope upwards at very small angles (<10 degrees for sure) or else flow separation occurs and you lose much of the benefit.

I'm hoping they do use a shaped underbody, since it reduces drag considerably and can generate massive downforce, for relatively low cost (tacking on a flat panel or 2). We should start seeing it on more cars anyways since reducing drag is becoming more important.

[Kage]

^ Yeah, underbody plastics are something I've been hoping for for this car. If they don't come with it I might have to take the time to make one.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Regarding the wing, yesterday I did a good bit of reading on aerodynamics, and I think it's hard to say. If they give the underbody a relatively flat panel with well designed diffuser, it can reduce lift much more than a wing can (obviously a wing would be extra help). Before anyone says that won't be the case since you can't really see a large diffuser on the bottom, from what I read, a diffuser can only slope upwards at very small angles (<10 degrees for sure) or else flow separation occurs and you lose much of the benefit.

I'm hoping they do use a shaped underbody, since it reduces drag considerably and can generate massive downforce, for relatively low cost (tacking on a flat panel or 2). We should start seeing it on more cars anyways since reducing drag is becoming more important.

Ummmm a Spoiler doesn't help reduce lift as much as it helps to produce downforce. The more pressure you have on your tires that are propelling you forward (to a point) you'll have better traction. Obviously this is a trade off between traction and drag. Get too much drag at the expense of added traction and you reduce the benefit.

It will reduce drag and turbulence. The smoother the air is coming off the back end the faster a car and move through the air. But it won't create downforce. The idea is to not create a vacuum behind the car.

I doubt you'll see any kind of underbody panels. The majority of cars now are fairly flat to begin with. But the diffuser should help smooth out some of that air.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Also, IIRC someone stated earlier that they should just change spring rates rather than adding a wing. I disagree - the characteristics of a wing are different from that of just changing spring rates, a wing only acts at higher speeds, so you can get a different weight distribution while moving, for stability. If the car creates no downforce/lift the weight distribution will be the same moving as it is when it is still (static weight dist.). In all truth, the weight distribution while moving is much more important than the static weight distribution.

The weight dist does change with different spring rate/rebound/damping in transitions. Higher rear compression damping for example resists weight transfer to the rear as you throttle out of a corner.

I understand a wing on an Evo or Supra, but a wing just seems excessive for a tossable, relatively lower HP RWD car. If it's getting snap oversteer it seems like the problem isn't not having a wing, but the suspension.

[Snaps]

^ I apologise, maybe I didn't explain myself enough. I meant if the car was traveling constantly (straight line, constant speed)... Acceleration/Braking/etc. affect it regardless of whether or not it has a wing

I don't think a wing is excessive on any car, but I agree it should be 'matched' to the car's purpose. I think that maybe the wing on the pre-production model is a little excessive, but at the same time, it shoudn't have the same sort of wing as a Camry

What if the problem isn't snap oversteer? What if it's just the back losing traction before the front (oversteer), but they don't want to fix that with a higher spring rate on the back/front (wherever it is neeed) because it would the ride harsh? That problem could be fixed with a wing...

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Ummmm a Spoiler doesn't help reduce lift as much as it helps to produce downforce. The more pressure you have on your tires that are propelling you forward (to a point) you'll have better traction. Obviously this is a trade off between traction and drag. Get too much drag at the expense of added traction and you reduce the benefit.

It will reduce drag and turbulence. The smoother the air is coming off the back end the faster a car and move through the air. But it won't create downforce. The idea is to not create a vacuum behind the car.

I doubt you'll see any kind of underbody panels. The majority of cars now are fairly flat to begin with. But the diffuser should help smooth out some of that air.

Sorry if my terminology was bad, a diffuser plus smooth underbody does produce downforce. In some sense, reduced lift is downforce, lift is the force exerted upwards by air, so if you produce force going downward, you are reducing lift. A diffuser definitely does produce downforce, you can read about it. It increases the velocity of the air under the car which reduces pressure by Bernoulli's Principle. It does this by creating a low pressure zone where the diffuser is, while preserving laminar flow to minimize drag. The low pressure zone pulls down on the diffuser slightly, but more importantly serves to pull out the air under the car which can reduce the pressure in front of the diffuser as well. Basically the same thing as "ground effects" that were banned from F1, except in F1 they went further and added side skirts to help channel air. Because it also helps in reducing turbulence behind the car, it reduces drag too which is why it can be so effective.

With a completely flat bottom, the low pressure zone starts behind the car, so you don't really get that benefit. In fact because the air over the car is at lower pressure due to moving faster, you get a bit of lift.

[Fortunate Few]

i like the spoiler.

[TRDMAN]

I would remove that first thing I think it looks great without any spoiler

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Ummmm a Spoiler doesn't help reduce lift as much as it helps to produce downforce. The more pressure you have on your tires that are propelling you forward (to a point) you'll have better traction. Obviously this is a trade off between traction and drag. Get too much drag at the expense of added traction and you reduce the benefit.

It will reduce drag and turbulence. The smoother the air is coming off the back end the faster a car and move through the air. But it won't create downforce. The idea is to not create a vacuum behind the car.

I doubt you'll see any kind of underbody panels. The majority of cars now are fairly flat to begin with. But the diffuser should help smooth out some of that air.

...I gotta start keeping a facepalm gif handy...

The only difference between lift and downforce is the direction/amount of force applied.

If the overall amount of vertical force is upwards, it is lift. If the car produces 200lbs of lift and the wing produces 80lbs of downforce, it is reducing lift, as the net total lift is now 120lbs. If it starts with 80lbs of downforce and the wing produces 80lbs of downforce, it is adding downforce.

High mounted wings always produce drag when they produce they're downforce. They are mounted high to get them out of all the turbulence coming off the car's surface.

Spoilers can produce downforce and/or reduce drag depending on the design.

The low pressure area (vacuum) behind a car is what a diffuser takes advantage of by smoothly moving the high pressure air under the car into the low pressure area. This reduces the upward force of the high pressure under car air, and the drag from the low pressure area behind the car. But often they need a spoiler to deliberately produce extra low pressure behind the car to make better use of the underbody flow.

As for undercar panels, they are not rocket science. Mk3 Supra had front undertray. The Focus has speed sensitive grille closing to reduce drag for crying out loud, so manufacturers are obviously looking for any mpg advantage they can get. Undercar panels are cheap and effective. But annoying when you need to work on your car.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Dimman

...I gotta start keeping a facepalm gif handy...

The only difference between lift and downforce is the direction/amount of force applied.

If the overall amount of vertical force is upwards, it is lift. If the car produces 200lbs of lift and the wing produces 80lbs of downforce, it is reducing lift, as the net total lift is now 120lbs. If it starts with 80lbs of downforce and the wing produces 80lbs of downforce, it is adding downforce.

High mounted wings always produce drag when they produce they're downforce. They are mounted high to get them out of all the turbulence coming off the car's surface.

Spoilers can produce downforce and/or reduce drag depending on the design.

The low pressure area (vacuum) behind a car is what a diffuser takes advantage of by smoothly moving the high pressure air under the car into the low pressure area. This reduces the upward force of the high pressure under car air, and the drag from the low pressure area behind the car. But often they need a spoiler to deliberately produce extra low pressure behind the car to make better use of the underbody flow.

As for undercar panels, they are not rocket science. Mk3 Supra had front undertray. The Focus has speed sensitive grille closing to reduce drag for crying out loud, so manufacturers are obviously looking for any mpg advantage they can get. Undercar panels are cheap and effective. But annoying when you need to work on your car.

ROFL yes you should. Because you make no sense.

Yes lift and downforce are the same force applied in different ways, but it's how they are applied which makes them different. Lift is created when you have a Vacuum under something so the atmosphere in an attempt to equalize it rushes in which creates lift. Downforce does the opposite. It's a vacuum on top of an object forcing it down.

Reducing lift does not mean creating downforce, it just means reducing the difference in the atmospheric pressure so that's it's more equal. Ideally neutral. You can have 0 lift pressure but that doesn't mean you've suddenly created downforce.

Since lift is created under the car you can counteract it with a Spoiler, but you won't reduce it.

Now the less lift you have the easier it is for downforce to work because it has less to work against.

Think of it like a tug-o-war. If you have 100 on each side and each is 1 equal unit of measurement then you're net gain is 0. Reduce lift by 30 and keep Downforce the same at 100 and now you have made your downforce more effective but you haven't added any downforce. Just less resistance.

Reducing drag with a spoiler usually ins't very effective. Spoilers will help smooth out the air coming off the rear so that it isn't spilling over and creating a vaccum. But it's not so much reducing drag as it is making it easier for the car to travel though the air. Again, same power, just easier to utilize it.

The air coming off a spoiler if everything is working correctly won't interact with the air coming off the bottom because everything is coming off smoothly.

So to summarize, increasing downforce isn't reducing lift. It's simply bullying lift to have less of an effect lol.

[iff2mastamatt]

I don't think the spoiler will help the 86 much performance wise, looks to be more for show imo.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

ROFL yes you should. Because you make no sense.

Yes lift and downforce are the same force applied in different ways, but it's how they are applied which makes them different. Lift is created when you have a Vacuum under something so the atmosphere in an attempt to equalize it rushes in which creates lift. Downforce does the opposite. It's a vacuum on top of an object forcing it down.

Reducing lift does not mean creating downforce, it just means reducing the difference in the atmospheric pressure so that's it's more equal. Ideally neutral. You can have 0 lift pressure but that doesn't mean you've suddenly created downforce.

Since lift is created under the car you can counteract it with a Spoiler, but you won't reduce it.

Now the less lift you have the easier it is for downforce to work because it has less to work against.

Think of it like a tug-o-war. If you have 100 on each side and each is 1 equal unit of measurement then you're net gain is 0. Reduce lift by 30 and keep Downforce the same at 100 and now you have made your downforce more effective but you haven't added any downforce. Just less resistance.

Reducing drag with a spoiler usually ins't very effective. Spoilers will help smooth out the air coming off the rear so that it isn't spilling over and creating a vaccum. But it's not so much reducing drag as it is making it easier for the car to travel though the air. Again, same power, just easier to utilize it.

The air coming off a spoiler if everything is working correctly won't interact with the air coming off the bottom because everything is coming off smoothly.

So to summarize, increasing downforce isn't reducing lift. It's simply bullying lift to have less of an effect lol.

No.

Aerodynamics only deal with CL, which is coefficient of lift, and can have a negative value.

The car as a whole has a CL, if the total is positive the car is said to have lift, if it's negative it's said to have downforce. Semantics.

Secondly your positioning of your 'vacuum' is the opposite of where it should be. It is about the locations of high and low pressure. Lower pressure (your 'vacuum')on the top of something is what creates lift. It is about pressure differentials. High pressure on one side, low pressure on the other, makes a force that pushes towards the low pressure side.

Also you understanding of drag is wrong too.

But it's not so much reducing drag as it is making it easier for the car to travel though the air.

What the heck do you think reducing drag does? It makes your car easier to move through the air. Again it's about pressure differentials.

I stand by my need to keep a facepalm smiley handy.