Why I think Toyota has advantage so far vs Subaru

[brzmaybe]

My impression is that Subaru gained in other ways.

Subaru got a new model they didn't have the funds to develop on their own. Also, I'm fairly sure that Toyota bore the vast majority of the development costs.

Subaru had to give access to their boxer engine technology, but they gained access to Toyota's dual port injection technology. (I understand each company considered its technology a crown jewel.

It's my understanding that the Subaru Gunma plant that builds BRZ/96/FR-S cars was operating at half capacity, (read, losing money). But the plant couldn't be closed because it was needed for future Subaru model production. So the project plugged a big cash drain in Subaru's accounts.

The Subaru aftermarket performance community received a substantial market expansion opportunity... not just a new Subaru model, but access to the wider Toyota/Scion market as well. Given that a significant portion of Subaru's performance reputation results from the aftermarket offerings, that's an indirect benefit to Subaru in the form of vendor health.

I think, on balance, that Subaru started BRZ production with a good deal, but introduction missteps are eroding its value. Now that the returns are in and the community judges that the partnership has hit a grand slam, I'm hoping that Subaru will take steps to make the best of its good fortune in tough times.

[FRiSson]

Excellent information in your thoughtful response.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by Hanakuso

Someone go weigh the Scion and Subaru badges and find out which 1 weighs less to find out which is truly the better lightweight sports car. My money is on the Scion badge. That should teach those Subaru fanboys they got the watered down version HA!

watered down version? haha, my friend (usually when someone says, "my friend" they don't mean it...) you sir, are the fanboy.

[Hanakuso]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

watered down version? haha, my friend (usually when someone says, "my friend" they don't mean it...) you sir, are the fanboy.

[SuperDave]

i'm seriously sure, that you're just stupid if you're actually betting on brands being the difference between the two. the car is a joint effort by both companies and implying that the subaru version is the "watered down" version is just plain stupid. if anything, the "scion" version is the one with less options.

if you didn't know, the toyota 86 is sold around elsewhere around the world with all the options that the subaru brz has here in the states, whereas the scion is mono spec and doesn't offer it. GOOD DAY SIR!

[MVJ1975]

Oh, for Pete's sake, recalibrate your sarcasm meter.

Of course he's not serious. Badge weight?!?

[Hanakuso]

Originally Posted by SuperDave

i'm seriously sure, that you're just stupid if you're actually betting on brands being the difference between the two. the car is a joint effort by both companies and implying that the subaru version is the "watered down" version is just plain stupid. if anything, the "scion" version is the one with less options.

if you didn't know, the toyota 86 is sold around elsewhere around the world with all the options that the subaru brz has here in the states, whereas the scion is mono spec and doesn't offer it. GOOD DAY SIR!

More then you can afford pal. Scion.

[SuperDave]

Originally Posted by Hanakuso

More then you can afford pal. Scion.

a troll being trolled by a troll. :happy0180:

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Skyhound

This is either a huge troll or insanely ignorant.

Look under the hood of your 86/FR-S/BRZ. Count all of the Subaru logos. Take the percentage of Subie parts put into the car and apply that percentage to how much money the FR-S, 86, AND BRZ has made. That is all Subaru's profit. What you don't realize about how a car is priced, is that every single component's price is factored into the price of the vehicle. The individual piece is bought from Subaru and then flipped in the cost of the whole car.

Now only the engineers and board members themselves at Fuji and Toyota know exactly how much of the car is Toyota and how much is Fuji. Though the entire project is meant to boost the business of both companies. The only purpose of selling an FR-S/86/BRZ as different models is to appeal to brand loyalty and differing markets. Both Subie and Toyota have insanely loyal customers and the badge will make a huge difference to them. The BRZ is styled and slightly tuned to appeal more to older customers who need/want all of the creature comforts and subtle styling. The FR-S/86 is agressively styled and tuned to appeal to the ricers and racers who want to act like they're the modern-day Takumi. Hence Toyota's obsession with 86 tribute badges.

Also, Subie's advertisements never focus on a singular model. They like to promote their entire brand as a whole. They prefer to let the consumers know that ANY Subaru is a good buy. After all, all that matters is that a Subaru gets sold not just the BRZ.

Edit:


LOLNOPE. If that were the case then it would be all Toyota badges underneath the hood. In the performance department, Toyota has been seriously lacking. The Lexus cars are at best "okay", even the LFA.

How about this: consider that Toyota gets over 15% of all FHI profits, of which Subaru is one (albeit the biggest) part.

Legacy sold, 15+% to Toyota.

STI sold, 15%+ to Toyota.

Subaru finally developing a new H4 after a quarter century? Thanks to Toyota.

Those nice little star badges under the hood: ditto that 15%.

Fixing the bore on the FA20 so larger valves and better flowing ports as well as giving fancy injection to run 12.5:1 just so Subaru could pull a very average 100 hp/L out of the H4: Toyota.

Taking over terrible Subaru JDM kei car design and production to free up money to redesign a desperately needed new Impreza: Toyota.

Insisting on a lightweight RWD, NA design, so Subaru didn't just underwhelm the world with a front-heavy WRX coupe, and actually added excitement outside of their safe niche and expanded potential market and sales: Toyota.



Sooooo, yeah...

[Xanatos]

Originally Posted by FRiSson

If you read between the lines of the Toyota-Subaru relationship, one can infer that Subaru is the less happy of the partners. Because of this, Toyota is vastly outmarketing Subaru on the FR-Z.

Please understand I am not saying that people won't continue to value and respect the BRZ, just that most people will associate the car with Toyota/Scion.

My conclusion - unless Subaru significantly differentiates its BRZ soon (I.E. all turbo motors or AWD), the FR-S will dominate market perception of the product. Toyota/Scion will have gained the lion's share of the benefits, both in adding some sporty energy to Toyota's product line and by lifting up the Scion sub-brand.

On a purely speculative basis, I predict that given these factors, it is more likely that Toyota will continue to improve and support the FR-Z product. I just can't see Subaru putting a lot of energy into it. There isn't that much of a payoff for them. If someone can make an alternate argument about this - I am listening.

Subaru makes both vehicles at their factory. Whether or not the BRZ sells as well as the FR-S doesn't make that much difference, FRS sells well they profit from manufacturing standpoint. BRZ sells well thats just a bonus.

[DSOmegaX]

Never understood the hate between owners. The fact is, at the end of the day, this car wouldn't be out today if it weren't for the collaboration between the two companies, so everyone should be LOVING both for making it happen.

And why are people so hung up about what badge is on the car? If you're a true driving enthusiast, you should be able to just appreciate what the car can do mechanically rather than wasting time trying to argue about a little piece of metal trim. And if anyone gives you shit for it, just laugh in their face about their ignorance!

[ZC6BRZ]

Interesting tidbit. I went to the Subaru dealer here in Japan, and they couldn't order any of the cool JDM bits, because the warehouse didn't have inventory, and wasn't expecting to have any for a month. Walked across the street to the Toyota dealer, and they were able to order the parts given a 10 day lead time.

Also, Toyota charged 10% more for all the parts than Subaru. And the Subaru dealership told me that the BRZ is on backorder til April.

I think Subaru is selling more to Toyota than keeping inventory on this car. That's fine with me, as long as Subaru keeps making good cars, as this is my 3rd Subaru.

Y'all gotta remember, Subaru is the SMALLEST of all Japanese carmakers.

[hav0c]

Originally Posted by DSOmegaX

Never understood the hate between owners. The fact is, at the end of the day, this car wouldn't be out today if it weren't for the collaboration between the two companies, so everyone should be LOVING both for making it happen.

And why are people so hung up about what badge is on the car? If you're a true driving enthusiast, you should be able to just appreciate what the car can do mechanically rather than wasting time trying to argue about a little piece of metal trim. And if anyone gives you shit for it, just laugh in their face about their ignorance!

Scion, Toyota, Subaru.. it's basically the same car. My choice between FR-S vs BRZ came down to things like features, aesthetics, price, and availability.

Worrying about the logo on your car is just giving in to the agenda of people who attend meetings where everyone says things like "branding", "vertical integration", and "target demographic marketshare".

I care about how it drives, what the sheet metal looks like, how I feel in it. Honestly you could stick a (pick a pariah brand) logo on it and I would not care.

Congrats to the respective leaders and engineers of both companies, cooperating to give us such a brilliant vehicle.

[DSOmegaX]

Originally Posted by hav0c

Scion, Toyota, Subaru.. it's basically the same car. My choice between FR-S vs BRZ came down to things like features, aesthetics, price, and availability.

Worrying about the logo on your car is just giving in to the agenda of people who attend meetings where everyone says things like "branding", "vertical integration", and "target demographic marketshare".

I care about how it drives, what the sheet metal looks like, how I feel in it. Honestly you could stick a (pick a pariah brand) logo on it and I would not care.

Congrats to the respective leaders and engineers of both companies, cooperating to give us such a brilliant vehicle.

Exactly!