Why I think Toyota has advantage so far vs Subaru
 

My impression to date is that Toyota has gained far more from the FR-Z (FR-S/BRZ/GT86) than Subaru. There are a few reasons for this.

1) Numbers: there are simply far more FR-S out there than BRZ. I think the ratio is about 1:3. Visibility and awareness goes to Toyota/Scion.

2) Price: The price advantage goes to Scion. Particularly with early practices of Subaru dealers.

3) Advertising: Toyota/Scion has done television ads of the FR-S. Has Subaru done anything. Again, Scion wins the awareness game.

4) Marketing Mix: The FR-S is an enormous boost for Scion's underwhelming offerings in the market. On the other hand, the BRZ fits uncomfortably with its all-wheel-drive heritage. In addition, Subaru already makes powerful, great handling cars. The BRZ doesn't break performance ground for them.

5) Differences: The differences between the FR-S and the BRZ are not large enough to offer much differentiation of product. I don't believe that the minor appearance differences, and the addition of alcantara, HIDs and Nav make much difference in the market.

If you read between the lines of the Toyota-Subaru relationship, one can infer that Subaru is the less happy of the partners. Because of this, Toyota is vastly outmarketing Subaru on the FR-Z.

Please understand I am not saying that people won't continue to value and respect the BRZ, just that most people will associate the car with Toyota/Scion.

My conclusion - unless Subaru significantly differentiates its BRZ soon (I.E. all turbo motors or AWD), the FR-S will dominate market perception of the product. Toyota/Scion will have gained the lion's share of the benefits, both in adding some sporty energy to Toyota's product line and by lifting up the Scion sub-brand.

On a purely speculative basis, I predict that given these factors, it is more likely that Toyota will continue to improve and support the FR-Z product. I just can't see Subaru putting a lot of energy into it. There isn't that much of a payoff for them. If someone can make an alternate argument about this - I am listening.

My numbers may be slightly off, but Toyota is approximately 15X the size of Subaru. The FRS may be selling better, but it's a blip in the radar for Toyota. The BRZ is having a HUGE positive impact on Subaru.

All true, but consider the size of each company. What may seem like marginal profit to Toyota could be HUGE for Subaru's book of business.

Both companies are winners here. Toyota gains the affordable, sporty model they (and we) have longed for for so long...and Subaru gets to add a vehicle to their lineup that they would have otherwise not been able to do without the shared R&D costs with Toyota. This is more of a niche vehicle for them and a great way to experiment without a huge setback if it fails.

Just my $.02 :)

MEP beat me to it. Damn my long-windedness lol.

Is Toyota beating Subaru? You can't find a BRZ on the lot in my area, there is a long waiting list etc. Subaru is right where they want to be.

Fuji is winning all of it

this is also the same with the FRS, their is a waiting line where i live.

The availability for the BRZ are very low, that is why you don't see any on their lots. I have only seen 2 BRZ with my eyes and that was at the Torrance Toyota meet.

I don't think the Subaru dealership near me has even received a single BRZ because I check their inventory occasionally to see and haven't seen one. Meanwhile, the Scion dealership has sold at least 7 or 8 FR-S, maybe more. But, you can attribute this to the production numbers. As long as they all sell, the companies are both doing just fine, and that's what seems to be happening. I don't think Toyota is "beating" Subaru, nor would they want to do so. They own part of Subaru, and shared the car with them. They're partners.

Subaru (Fugi) is building both cars. They make money no matter which one you buy. I just hope they keep the BRZ around and continue to develop the platform on the Subaru side.

iirc, the brz sold out almost immediately in japan and there's a waiting list months long.


toyota and subaru have planned out how many of each model to make in advance. it was well understood that less of the brz would be manufactured. and for the price difference in the us, i could argue that the brz is a better value for the extra features.


the toyota-subaru arrangement isn't a zero sum game.

The only number that's been floating around (which may not even be accurate) is that they are producing FRS at a 3:1 or even greater ratio than the BRZ.
As far as who is 'winning' is concerned, maybe you can say Scion is winning from the visibility perspective due to the sheer outnumbering of FRS vs BRZ on the road.

As far as winning in terms of profit - we would need some answers about the money split.
Does Subaru earn money for every FRS that is sold granted that their engine is in it? What % profit? Does it work vice versa for Toyota / Scion for every BRZ sold? Again what % profit that way?
I think it would be safe to say at this point that they are looking at profits.. for both companies, not only in monetary terms. Scion brand has taken a leap and Subaru is now in the RWD sports car scene.

But in the end... does it really matter for us as the consumer? An 86 is an 86 in my eyes and what I value as 'winning' is that each of us 86 owners have a long satisfying relationship with our cars.
:thumbsup:

Um...Toyota and Subaru aren't in competition, they're working together to help each other out (Toyota owns a decent size chunk of Subaru). As far as I can tell, Toyota wants to expand the youth-oriented Scion brand more by adding a true sports car to that mix otherwise they'd have sold it as a GT86 here just like everywhere else to help the Toyota brand. For Subaru, I figure they want to diversify their niche AWD-only brand identity by adding a dedicated RWD vehicle, and are using their sports car reputation from the WRX and STI to do so via the BRZ. Vehicle pricing and appointment is a reflection of the brands and their buyers, hence the FR-S being more entry level and the BRZ being more well-accessorized. I expect both makes will benefit greatly from the vehicles and will continue to develop them, with Toyota selling considerably more than Subaru in the process. Remember, the brands are different but the cars are the same (essentially).

dumb.