Why I think Toyota has advantage so far vs Subaru

[thermobox]

Originally Posted by Skyhound

This is either a huge troll or insanely ignorant.

Look under the hood of your 86/FR-S/BRZ. Count all of the Subaru logos. Take the percentage of Subie parts put into the car and apply that percentage to how much money the FR-S, 86, AND BRZ has made. That is all Subaru's profit. What you don't realize about how a car is priced, is that every single component's price is factored into the price of the vehicle. The individual piece is bought from Subaru and then flipped in the cost of the whole car.

Now only the engineers and board members themselves at Fuji and Toyota know exactly how much of the car is Toyota and how much is Fuji. Though the entire project is meant to boost the business of both companies. The only purpose of selling an FR-S/86/BRZ as different models is to appeal to brand loyalty and differing markets. Both Subie and Toyota have insanely loyal customers and the badge will make a huge difference to them. The BRZ is styled and slightly tuned to appeal more to older customers who need/want all of the creature comforts and subtle styling. The FR-S/86 is agressively styled and tuned to appeal to the ricers and racers who want to act like they're the modern-day Takumi. Hence Toyota's obsession with 86 tribute badges.

Also, Subie's advertisements never focus on a singular model. They like to promote their entire brand as a whole. They prefer to let the consumers know that ANY Subaru is a good buy. After all, all that matters is that a Subaru gets sold not just the BRZ.

Edit:


LOLNOPE. If that were the case then it would be all Toyota badges underneath the hood. In the performance department, Toyota has been seriously lacking. The Lexus cars are at best "okay", even the LFA.

Not typing a big rant. Check the history of events. This was Toyotas baby. Yes, every part says Subaru on it. It doesn't change who started the whole project and who wanted the beloved AE86 back.

[eriktherod]

I don't think the OP was trying to make it into a Toyota vs Subaru battle, I'm sure we're all well aware that the twins are a product of both companies. That being said, we all know both companies are also benefiting from its success.

I think the OP was just trying to say how he feels Toyota's brand is being affected more than Subaru's and I'd have to agree. While Toyota is a huge company, many many times larger than Subaru, I feel that this car helps their lackluster line-up much more than Subaru.

While I'm sure a lot of Subaru loyalists will go with the BRZ, I feel the FRS brings a lot of new customers to Toyota. When I talk to people about the FR-S, I typically come to "... and if you like a more luxury model, you should check out the Subaru BRZ." Most people blink and go, "Oh, Subaru has one too?" They know of the FR-S as "the new Scion" but not necessarily of the BRZ.

Obviously, as Subaru is actually manufacturing the car for Toyota, they're probably on the better financial end of the deal. For brand, Toyota/Scion is definitely doing great for awareness. So in the end, it's a pretty good symbiotic relationship.

I think that's really the important part here. There have been a lot of partnership designed cars between automakers over the years. Many of them have been subpar, or even downright terrible. This is really one of the best of all time between two manufacturers.

[Flat Black VW]

I understand what you are saying by your post OP, but I think you have a lack of some important information.

Subaru is not going for the same market as Scion, The BRZ is intended for a more "mature" market, while the FR-S is supposed to be for the "young" people.
Advertising, Subaru is not doing advertising for this car, their allotted number for the year are pretty much already sold out, this is because they are producing significantly less BRZs than FR-Ss, this is not simply Toyota did better marketing the car, this was the original intention.

Basically everything you described is what Toyota/Scion and Subaru were planning to do, they don't want to be in competition with each other so they go for a different market with the two vehicles.

Subaru is fine with selling less numbers wise because, really, they produce all of them, so they get their fair share no matter what.

[eriktherod]

I agree, and I am really curious to see the owners of these cars on the road once they start getting more popular (or well.. sold).

Last night I saw another FR-S for the first time on the road, and it was a Whiteout with a (seemingly cute) young girl driving it. Unfortunately, I was in my friend's Kia and couldn't give her a friendly FR-S thumbs up, but it was cool all the same.

[FRiSson]

Originally Posted by Flat Black VW

I understand what you are saying by your post OP, but I think you have a lack of some important information.

Subaru is not going for the same market as Scion, The BRZ is intended for a more "mature" market, while the FR-S is supposed to be for the "young" people.
Advertising, Subaru is not doing advertising for this car, their allotted number for the year are pretty much already sold out, this is because they are producing significantly less BRZs than FR-Ss, this is not simply Toyota did better marketing the car, this was the original intention.

Basically everything you described is what Toyota/Scion and Subaru were planning to do, they don't want to be in competition with each other so they go for a different market with the two vehicles.

Subaru is fine with selling less numbers wise because, really, they produce all of them, so they get their fair share no matter what.

I wouldn't take that market segmentation business too seriously. For one thing, marketing is not a science, and it is not even an art, it is a lot of hype based on some unstable correlations. The market a manufacturer goes after is often not the market they get. A classic example is the Honda Element that was meant to appeal to young people but garnered mostly retirees.

Secondly, I think Subaru got stuck with the "older, more mature" market segment by default, not by desire. They had to think of something to differentiate themselves from Toyota's decision to sell the car as a Scion, Toyota's youth brand.

I suspect that the BRZ and FR-S will sell to essentially the same people, with very minor differences. BRZ owners will on average be more knowledgeable about cars (because there is almost no other way to find out about the car except in enthusiast publications and forums) and will have slightly more money.

[hotaka]

I think the fact that AE86 was a toyota is a huge advantage. Don't you think that people who drove an AE86 for years and years would buy the toyota? would they really care for minor differences between the toyota and subaru?

[#87]

On paper the difference between FRS and BRZ premium make it an exceptional value. (HID, Nav, LED DRL)

[Ben_G]

Originally Posted by hotaka

I think the fact that AE86 was a toyota is a huge advantage. Don't you think that people who drove an AE86 for years and years would buy the toyota? would they really care for minor differences between the toyota and subaru?

I think people who drove the original 86 would get the Toyota...if only for nostalgia...

However, I think the brz is the way better value proposition.

And, don't quote me on this, but it seems like the brz was kinda of an afterthought by Subaru.... just like Toyota was contracted by GM to design and build the Vibe, and Toyota decided that it wanted to sell its own version, branded the matrix, it seems like subie was contracted to build the 86 and decided it wanted to jump on the wagon halfway through the process....after initial basic design was approved. At least with the matrix/vibe twins, there was much greater visual distinction between the two.

[SkitterSkotter]

the thing that I find funny as that the subaru (most likely due to demand) seems to carry more of a presence, though I think both cars are massive winners.

[Snoopyalien24]

Okay I can see you haven't followed this car too long..

Originally Posted by FRiSson

My impression to date is that Toyota has gained far more from the FR-Z (FR-S/BRZ/GT86) than Subaru. There are a few reasons for this.

1) Visibility and awareness goes to Toyota/Scion.

This is an opinion, not a fact.

2) Price: The price advantage goes to Scion. Particularly with early practices of Subaru dealers.

I have seen FR-S n my area for 35k and BRZ for 30k, so this does not apply everywhere

3) Advertising: Toyota/Scion has done television ads of the FR-S. Has Subaru done anything. Again, Scion wins the awareness game.

Subaru lets the Magazines do all the talking really. When people go research the FRS they hear about it's "twin". Also, open the hood and what do we see? Subaru everywhere

4) Marketing Mix: The FR-S is an enormous boost for Scion's underwhelming offerings in the market. On the other hand, the BRZ fits uncomfortably with its all-wheel-drive heritage. In addition, Subaru already makes powerful, great handling cars. The BRZ doesn't break performance ground for them.

It's pocket change for Toyota and boost for Scion but Subaru gets a percent of every sale, that being Toyota/Scion and all for BRZ's. Subaru does NOT only make AWD cars, they offer FWD in Japan.

Also it does, because they got 200hp out of an N/A 2.0L engine.

5) Differences: The differences between the FR-S and the BRZ are not large enough to offer much differentiation of product. I don't believe that the minor appearance differences, and the addition of alcantara, HIDs and Nav make much difference in the market.

Also YES, these are deal breakers. You are getting better interior, NAV, LED DRL's, and HID's for only 2 grand more. Also, Subaru dealers have more experience with flat boxer engines.

If you read between the lines of the Toyota-Subaru relationship, one can infer that Subaru is the less happy of the partners. Because of this, Toyota is vastly outmarketing Subaru on the FR-Z.

Once again unless you know Tada and Akio, this is a complete opinion and complete media hype.

Please understand I am not saying that people won't continue to value and respect the BRZ, just that most people will associate the car with Toyota/Scion.

My conclusion - unless Subaru significantly differentiates its BRZ soon (I.E. all turbo motors or AWD), the FR-S will dominate market perception of the product. Toyota/Scion will have gained the lion's share of the benefits, both in adding some sporty energy to Toyota's product line and by lifting up the Scion sub-brand.

On a purely speculative basis, I predict that given these factors, it is more likely that Toyota will continue to improve and support the FR-Z product. I just can't see Subaru putting a lot of energy into it. There isn't that much of a payoff for them.

Most people compare the FR-S and the BRZ and some choose the BRZ over the FR-S and some the FR-S over the BRZ. Why? idk ask them. It's little things that are all in the persons opinion. They are basically the same car.

If someone can make an alternate argument about this - I am listening.

Just did

EDIT: Added a few key things and spelling

[ngabdala]

The OP forgot #6

#6: Who gives a crap?

[chulooz]

The car is a subaru from head to toe (tranny, diff, d4s, and design are compliments of toyota), if you look at it and see something else you would be mistake. Look at how deep the dipped into the subaru parts bin. Subaru will make a killing on these cars... all of them.

The Toyota centercaps are stamped SUBARU

[Shagaliscious]

Originally Posted by thermobox

Not typing a big rant. Check the history of events. This was Toyotas baby. Yes, every part says Subaru on it. It doesn't change who started the whole project and who wanted the beloved AE86 back.

This car would probably still exist if Subaru didn't help, it wouldn't exist if Toyota never wanted to start the project in the first place.

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by Shagaliscious

This car would probably still exist if Subaru didn't help, it wouldn't exist if Toyota never wanted to start the project in the first place.

trollin or uninformed? They wouldnt reproduce the boxer layout... and they still havent built a production sports car since the mrs/supra.