FA24 oil starvation explained

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by jetvermillion

For real. It's one thing to politely ask for a summary of new information. It's another to demand one and a reason to watch it because your time is too precious. No one is being forced to watch. Disappointing

I never understood the point of posting a link to a YouTube video in an enthusiast forum and not giving any details about the video, especially if you are the creator of the video. It's such blatant click-baiting and trying to get views that I immediately don't want to give my views to that person. Combined with a very lengthy video that is mostly 3 dudes sitting on a couch talking, it's even worse. Want to garner my views by marketing your content in a forum? How about sharing some of that knowledge in the platform you're advertising on.

[jetvermillion]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

I never understood the point of posting a link to a YouTube video in an enthusiast forum and not giving any details about the video, especially if you are the creator of the video. It's such blatant click-baiting and trying to get views that I immediately don't want to give my views to that person. Combined with a very lengthy video that is mostly 3 dudes sitting on a couch talking, it's even worse. Want to garner my views by marketing your content in a forum? How about sharing some of that knowledge in the platform you're advertising on.

That's a fair point

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by mr.whiskers

TikTok really killed peoples attention span. They cant watch it if its not a sped up 30 second video with some dumb mobile game playing in the background

Thank you for the video. I actually subbed to your channel like a month ago, randomly found it and love the content you put out.

My question is what is your opinion on autocrossing this platform? Have you heard of any blown up engines from that? I would like to believe I am safer than track driving because really there are no long sweeping turns at high speeds. And the oil doesn't heat up that much. I still overfill by like 500ml and ask dealership to put in 5w-30, but I have this nagging thought at the back of my head that it might blow up. Dunno if I should keep the car once the warranty runs out in couple of years (only mods are OEM camber bolts on front and RE-71RS)

Data log your pressures and see if you're having problems during your runs.That is the only way to know for sure. Or just assume since your motor has not gone pop everything is fine lol. I would at least suggest UOA to check for metal in the oil

[Frost]

Originally Posted by mr.whiskers

TikTok really killed peoples attention span. They cant watch it if its not a sped up 30 second video with some dumb mobile game playing in the background

Thank you for the video. I actually subbed to your channel like a month ago, randomly found it and love the content you put out.

My question is what is your opinion on autocrossing this platform? Have you heard of any blown up engines from that? I would like to believe I am safer than track driving because really there are no long sweeping turns at high speeds. And the oil doesn't heat up that much. I still overfill by like 500ml and ask dealership to put in 5w-30, but I have this nagging thought at the back of my head that it might blow up. Dunno if I should keep the car once the warranty runs out in couple of years (only mods are OEM camber bolts on front and RE-71RS)

In my research, the only engines I've heard of blowing up are on track but that's just my research. 900BRZ and myself have been talking a lot these days but afaik, no autocross related ones.

That said, my hypothesis that has been confirmed in my data at CTMP GP is that autocross usually does NOT induce the longevity of lateral G loads enough to make this a concern. We specifically picked this track (CTMP GP) due to the insanely long right handers that occur at very high speeds to basically induce as long of a right hander as fast as possible.

I know the US AutoX Nationals run MUCH bigger courses than I'm used to up here in Canada so I might be wrong in my narrow aspect of AutoX up here.

I would still suggest to anyone that you overfill by at least 500mL if not 750mL to be safe and log oil pressures. It's so worth it.

I still love the car - just now trying to help the community solve this issue especially with the second gen fixing so many of the original twin's problems.

Happy driving.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by jetvermillion

Thanks for the vid. I've been enjoying your track reviews. The experiment tilting the fa20 engine 90degrees was really amusing to say the least

Hey just wanted to clarify, I'm Kevin and not Jason - the channel is Jason's but he's a good friend of mine and we're both passionate about the second gen twins. We just paired up for this video because I had access to the 2024 OTA season as director and it was the best testing environment because we have access to almost all the tracks this season (CTMP GP, SMP Pro and Long, DDT 1 Kink, DDT 2 Kink and TMP). Time Attack is also the best way to expose the car to a clean track to get max lateral Gs at various realistic scenarios (as opposed to just doing right hand donuts on a closed course) compared to any wheel-to-wheel series as they have to taking compromised racing lines to adjust for other cars on track and will likely not be hitting max P G's possible.

Thanks for taking the time to watch!

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

I never understood the point of posting a link to a YouTube video in an enthusiast forum and not giving any details about the video, especially if you are the creator of the video. It's such blatant click-baiting and trying to get views that I immediately don't want to give my views to that person. Combined with a very lengthy video that is mostly 3 dudes sitting on a couch talking, it's even worse. Want to garner my views by marketing your content in a forum? How about sharing some of that knowledge in the platform you're advertising on.

Like I really do get the fact that not everyone is going to be wanting to watch an hour long video. I do.

But we've even gone thru the painstaking process of making a thumbnail that's clickbaity BUT informative (full stock) and even added chapters. This is on top of the physical work of sourcing parts (using our own money), building the lower half of the engine (on our own time) and then putting my own car on the line.

If you're going to give up on not even spending 60s to read the chapters and giving us a chance to recuperate some views for this work, then that's that I suppose.

TLDR:
- Confirmed gen2 twins will get close to starving at full stock.
- Temp patch is to overfill by 500-750mL and maybe even 1L if you're ok with the effects.
- Oil run is Motul X-Clean 5w30. Oil temps hit 130 deg C in 7 minutes of hard hard driving with ambient at 17-19 deg C air temp.
- Conclusion: Car has two related problems; in priority they are 1. Oil pan is not sized for long high G right handers, 2. Oil temps run way too high with WOT driving.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Frost

In my research, the only engines I've heard of blowing up are on track but that's just my research. 900BRZ and myself have been talking a lot these days but afaik, no autocross related ones.

That said, my hypothesis that has been confirmed in my data at CTMP GP is that autocross usually does NOT induce the longevity of lateral G loads enough to make this a concern. We specifically picked this track (CTMP GP) due to the insanely long right handers that occur at very high speeds to basically induce as long of a right hander as fast as possible.

I know the US AutoX Nationals run MUCH bigger courses than I'm used to up here in Canada so I might be wrong in my narrow aspect of AutoX up here.

I would still suggest to anyone that you overfill by at least 500mL if not 750mL to be safe and log oil pressures. It's so worth it.

I still love the car - just now trying to help the community solve this issue especially with the second gen fixing so many of the original twin's problems.

Happy driving.

If you go hwy "ramping" regularly on public roads, i think you can hold right handers long enough with Gs to expose this problem. I agree that overfilling and maybe keeping it in a higher gear during such activity would be ideal.

One thing i do not get though, if cup cars are not blowing up, why are weekend track guys/TA participants losing their motors?

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Petah78

If you go hwy "ramping" regularly on public roads, i think you can hold right handers long enough with Gs to expose this problem. I agree that overfilling and maybe keeping it in a higher gear during such activity would be ideal.

One thing i do not get though, if cup cars are not blowing up, why are weekend track guys/TA participants losing their motors?

As mentioned previously, Time Attack focuses on the fastest single lap you can put down whereas Cup Cars are Wheel-to-Wheel and you're likely NOT on the best racing line due to sharing the track rubbing fenders. TLDR: you're likely not getting max lateral Gs compared to TA folks who have clean track to hit the best lap possible. This is why our test or anyone who goes for a decent lapping day with no traffic will the proper environment for oil pressure drops.

[mr.whiskers]

Originally Posted by Frost

In my research, the only engines I've heard of blowing up are on track but that's just my research. 900BRZ and myself have been talking a lot these days but afaik, no autocross related ones.

That said, my hypothesis that has been confirmed in my data at CTMP GP is that autocross usually does NOT induce the longevity of lateral G loads enough to make this a concern. We specifically picked this track (CTMP GP) due to the insanely long right handers that occur at very high speeds to basically induce as long of a right hander as fast as possible.

I know the US AutoX Nationals run MUCH bigger courses than I'm used to up here in Canada so I might be wrong in my narrow aspect of AutoX up here.

I would still suggest to anyone that you overfill by at least 500mL if not 750mL to be safe and log oil pressures. It's so worth it.

I still love the car - just now trying to help the community solve this issue especially with the second gen fixing so many of the original twin's problems.

Happy driving.

I think it would be a good idea for a video in a series (I assume you are doing a series of video on this issue?) is to take some measurements at an AutoX event. I dont think anyone posted this info yet

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Frost

As mentioned previously, Time Attack focuses on the fastest single lap you can put down whereas Cup Cars are Wheel-to-Wheel and you're likely NOT on the best racing line due to sharing the track rubbing fenders. TLDR: you're likely not getting max lateral Gs compared to TA folks who have clean track to hit the best lap possible. This is why our test or anyone who goes for a decent lapping day with no traffic will the proper environment for oil pressure drops.

I will agree with the W2W and not taking ideal lines but does cup cars not run conti slicks? I am sure TA guys are also running ultra sticky 200TW tires, and then some based on class but i suspect cup cars are subjected to crazy Gs as well. And if you factor in that you can already emulate pressure drop with OE PS4 tires, there is plenty of Gs within cup cars to experience pressure drops.

Having said that, i am not disagreeing with your findings. I am just wondering what is the minimal oil pressure threshold for the FA24? Is the low pressure observed within the design tolerance? Likely not....i just find it fascinating that cup cars survives while street driven tracked/TA guys does not.

[jetvermillion]

Originally Posted by Frost

Hey just wanted to clarify, I'm Kevin and not Jason - the channel is Jason's but he's a good friend of mine and we're both passionate about the second gen twins. We just paired up for this video because I had access to the 2024 OTA season as director and it was the best testing environment because we have access to almost all the tracks this season (CTMP GP, SMP Pro and Long, DDT 1 Kink, DDT 2 Kink and TMP). Time Attack is also the best way to expose the car to a clean track to get max lateral Gs at various realistic scenarios (as opposed to just doing right hand donuts on a closed course) compared to any wheel-to-wheel series as they have to taking compromised racing lines to adjust for other cars on track and will likely not be hitting max P G's possible.

Thanks for taking the time to watch!

Ah gotcha thanks for the clarification. In either case it was an enjoyable watch and thanks for taking the time to put it together

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Petah78

I will agree with the W2W and not taking ideal lines but does cup cars not run conti slicks? I am sure TA guys are also running ultra sticky 200TW tires, and then some based on class but i suspect cup cars are subjected to crazy Gs as well. And if you factor in that you can already emulate pressure drop with OE PS4 tires, there is plenty of Gs within cup cars to experience pressure drops.

Having said that, i am not disagreeing with your findings. I am just wondering what is the minimal oil pressure threshold for the FA24? Is the low pressure observed within the design tolerance? Likely not....i just find it fascinating that cup cars survives while street driven tracked/TA guys does not.

Very hard to figure the minimal oil pressure threshold for the FA24 without inside knowledge of the engine build and components ...

...

Or... we blow up an engine due to oil starvation on purpose (destructive testing).

Our opinion of 29psi being low but not catastrophic is based on previous experience on engines but its not a 100% guarantee. I'm sending out my oil for analysis to truly see if we had issues from that video. Stay tuned.

As for the Cup car guys running on slicks, yeah they probably might hit a peak G once or twice in their sessions but I'm not sure if they could sustain it like we can for OTA (we literally schedule runs such that you have 3 hot clean laps). Most of us run 200tw cheater tires which can be just as bad for lateral Gs. The key thing is that we don't want THE MOST G's ever, its just finding out what the threshold is to have starvation due to lateral G's.

Clearly its already below what the PS4s can do (which I believe is > 1G) so basically... any sticky tire will only make it worse.

[autoracer86]

Originally Posted by Petah78

One thing i do not get though, if cup cars are not blowing up, why are weekend track guys/TA participants losing their motors?

900brz did a blog post about the cup cars and they are running 7.0L of oil so I think that helps A LOT

[Frost]

Originally Posted by autoracer86

900brz did a blog post about the cup cars and they are running 7.0L of oil so I think that helps A LOT

Whoa whoa whoa, thats not what he said.

This is as quoted on the site:

"Fill level
Specified fill volume is 6.0 US quarts in the sump, with an additional 1.0 US quarts in the oil cooler circuit. So there is a total of 7.0 US quarts combined. The drain and fill procedure specifies leaving the oil in the oil cooler circuit, draining the sump, and refilling with 6.0 US quarts, which would equate to a 0.7 US quart overfill.

NOTE: I was also told that the teams are only required to fill to the max level on the dipstick and the dipstick is unchanged from the street car, so this contradicts overfill specified in the service instructions. "

That's 7 Quarts total or 6.624 liters with at least 1 Quart in the oil cooler or 0.946 L. They approximate roughly a 0.7 Quart overfill or roughly 0.662 L.

Please don't mix up the units!

The overfill amount works out to the same range I've been suggesting to anyone asking me on the topic (500 - 750mL).