FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[raz0rbladez909]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

I think it's fair to say that Toyota delivered a great car for the money (but do the extra bits on the BRZ warrant the price hike...?), but some options for those who want to get more out of it without relying on the aftermarket would be nice.

For example, I find the three versions of trim for the stupid fake fender grills to be pointless -- even more pointless than the fake grills themselves. Someone make a better set of fenders for this car!

I found the options for hardcore brakes surprising -- until I saw the actual braking distances it needs stock.

I find the choice of tires silly. That's a win-win-win-win for them on cost savings, fuel economy, philosophy, and -- yes -- making the car feel more torquey than it is, but stickier tires should be offered standard.

15 years ago this car would be up against the WRX and the Evo, which Tada san referred to as "boring" to drive with all their power and big sticky tires (huh? what?).

Toyota has rewritten the rules to favor their new car, and that is an impressive feat of marketing.

And to whomever likened it to a Silvia -- over here we got the incredibly lackluster, non turbo, 240sx. The Japanese kept the better car for themselves, like they always do.

Anyway, people rebuild those things and then slap huge turbos on them. Don't see too many people in ones running at stock levels of power... whatever resemblance there may be (or not be) to that car, it speaks volumes of how much MORE fun a lightweight car can be when we shift from under/reasonably powered to overpowered.

I think I'm bruising a few egos here with my harsh, but I think not unfair, complaints... that said, I've actually written a number of very positive things about the car (which were ignored), and all of my criticisms are grounded in stats, prmarily about braking and handling, which the car is supposed to be phenomenal at (it's not, based on very basic benchmarks).

I'm not saying it isn't a good car for the $$$ or that it isn't fun to drive.

But there seem to be a broad swath of folks here who are so enamored with the car they are oblivious to its limitations. THAT is fanboyism.

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that the car has obvious limitations. It was made as a base platform for a reason. Could it have come with brembos? Sure. Could they have put stickier tires on it? Sure. Could they have used forced induction? Sure. But they didn't, so there really is no point to complaining about the car in its stock form, because honestly, most of the people who bought these cars that are on here aren't planning on keeping them stock. Obviously there isn't a massive aftermarket for it yet, but once it takes off you're going to see people pushing the chassis to its limits. I think until those limits are exposed you'd be better off sitting along for the ride instead of knocking how it came stock.

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Nonsense. In that vid it lost to the "heavy pig" everyone keeps panning (and let's forget how badly it was thrashed by the Mustang...) and its slalom, braking, and skidpad stats are no better (and sometimes worse) than last gen Civics and Celicas. The Lotus would run rings around it.

Everone keeps pointing to its losses as wins. Thats absurd at the face of it. It struggles against a miata (losing on the slalom in the Best Motoring vid, and pulling out close wins on the drag and time attacks), its only real competitor (and I predict the next gen miata will blow it away).

Toyota lowered rather than raised the benchmark. That's why they hype the "fun factor" and say "numbers don't matter". They will to the guys who track the car...

you do realize it's pointless to reason with those fanboys right? they think 86 is the best "sports car" ever in production. the "light weight" is the new standard which apparently any other heavier sports cars to them are considered "not responsive/not agile" lol

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

I found the options for hardcore brakes surprising -- until I saw the actual braking distances it needs stock.

The stock car will be fine on the stock rotors and calipers at the track, with appropriate pads. Braking distance is largely a function of tire grip, you know. That and good front/rear brake balance (i.e., not too much front bias).

I find the choice of tires silly. That's a win-win-win-win for them on cost savings, fuel economy, philosophy, and -- yes -- making the car feel more torquey than it is, but stickier tires should be offered standard.

Easy enough to fix. If/when I get mine, I'll likely keep the stock tires up to the first time I want to track it.
Like I've said before, I've driven my S2000 a lot on no-grip winter tires, it's still a hell of a lot of fun to drive!

15 years ago this car would be up against the WRX and the Evo, which Tada san referred to as "boring" to drive with all their power and big sticky tires (huh? what?).

Easy enough to fit big(ish) tires to the twins. Big power is another issue, but for many of us, not a major one for a dd street car.

Toyota has rewritten the rules to favor their new car, and that is an impressive feat of marketing.

I wanted a new car like this to appear on the US market LONG before Toyota and Subaru even thought about making this car.

And to whomever likened it to a Silvia -- over here we got the incredibly lackluster, non turbo, 240sx. The Japanese kept the better car for themselves, like they always do.

The S13 240SX was a fantastic car. It would have been great to get the SR20DET, but the S13 version of the KA24DET wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. The FR-S/BRZ essentially give us the SR20DET Silvia's performance without the turbo.

Anyway, people rebuild those things and then slap huge turbos on them. Don't see too many people in ones running at stock levels of power... whatever resemblance there may be (or not be) to that car, it speaks volumes of how much MORE fun a lightweight car can be when we shift from under/reasonably powered to overpowered.

My S13 served as my backup track car when I was tracking my much much faster 240Z. I wound up taking it to about half a dozen track events. I loved it! Never felt the need to add more power to it. If it had become a track car, I would eventually have gotten to it, though...

I think I'm bruising a few egos here with my harsh, but I think not unfair, complaints...

Certainly not mine. I don't own one yet. Probably will get one to replace the S2000 for DD duty in the next year or so, though.

that said, I've actually written a number of very positive things about the car (which were ignored), and all of my criticisms are grounded in stats, prmarily about braking and handling, which the car is supposed to be phenomenal at (it's not, based on very basic benchmarks).

A. There's a lot more to "handling" (particularly in terms of FUN and FEEL) than can be quantified by numbers in a magazine.
B. For a net cost of ~$400 the car's handling and braking capabilities are transformed, and it outruns MS3s and WRXs around Spring Mountain despite having vastly inferior power/weight

But *anyway*, if you have to be able to point to numbers in a magazine to enjoy a car, again, this isn't the car for you.

But there seem to be a broad swath of folks here who are so enamored with the car they are oblivious to its limitations. THAT is fanboyism.

You and that other guy seem to think that everyone else measures a car's worth/value exactly like you do: by 0-60, 1/4-mile, 60-0, slalom, skidpad, lap times, etc.

News flash: we don't.

Speaking for myself, I preferred the S13 240SX to the Z32 300ZX, even though by the performance numbers it's inferior in every way.

I'd prefer a Miata to a Mustang GT, even though by the performance numbers it's inferior in practically every way

I prefer a Lotus Elise to a Nissan GT-R, even though by the numbers it's inferior.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Long/short: I do like to go fast. But I'd rather drive smaller/lighter/more elemental rwd cars than bigger/heavier/more overwrought cars even if they have vastly superior power/weight and super-wide tires that give them other-worldly grip.

I don't think the FR-S/BRZ will set the world on fire in terms of their performance. I don't think anyone has suggested that here. I don't see where you and that other guy are coming up with your claims of rampant fanboyism.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Again, have you guys seen how absurd you fanboys have become? Just cuz your car is light, it doesn't mean it's the best handling car ever.

I don't see where anyone has said that.
Then again I wouldn't bet against an FR-S/BRZ vs. a base 370Z (225/245 tires) on the same model tires in a test of pure handling. (not that that would remotely qualify it as "best handling car ever").

All you keep thinking a $25k car can handle better than all those supercars are over the top of your head and delusional.

Again, not seeing where anyone is saying anything like that.

You would never see ppl driving Z saying it's better than GT-R or Lambo, but apparently you 86 fanboys think otherwise of your car.

??? Where are you getting this?
I will say that, for me, the FR-S/BRZ is "better" than the 370Z :P
Better being subjective...
Objectively, the 370Z is much faster of course. I'd still rather have an FR-S or BRZ.

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

you do realize it's pointless to reason with those fanboys right? they think 86 is the best "sports car" ever in production.

Haven't seen anyone imply that...

the "light weight" is the new standard which apparently any other heavier sports cars to them are considered "not responsive/not agile" lol

While most manufacturers build cars to generate performance numbers to stroke the egos of buyers, every once in a while they actually build something LESS. Something smaller and lighter-weight and simpler. These are the kinds of cars that appeal to *me*.

Light weight has always been a critical feature of responsive, fun-to-drive sports cars. Lighter weight allows you to do MORE with LESS.
Lightweight platforms are also GREAT for building track cars out of.

Anyway, here's to the next Z being 500 lb. lighter

[GNS]

For a net cost of ~$400 the car's handling and braking capabilities are transformed, and it outruns MS3s and WRXs around Spring Mountain despite having vastly inferior power/weight

I would like to point out that, for a fair test, the same tires should have been given to both the MS3 and WRX. The article was a way to illustrate how much of a difference tires make, let's not make it anything more than it really was.

Advocating numbers as a measure of a car's performance is just as fanboy-ish as is advocating driver feel over numbers. Don't fall into either extreme.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The stock car will be fine on the stock rotors and calipers at the track, with appropriate pads. Braking distance is largely a function of tire grip, you know. That and good front/rear brake balance (i.e., not too much front bias).

Easy enough to fix. If/when I get mine, I'll likely keep the stock tires up to the first time I want to track it.
Like I've said before, I've driven my S2000 a lot on no-grip winter tires, it's still a hell of a lot of fun to drive!

Easy enough to fit big(ish) tires to the twins. Big power is another issue, but for many of us, not a major one for a dd street car.

I wanted a new car like this to appear on the US market LONG before Toyota and Subaru even thought about making this car.

The S13 240SX was a fantastic car. It would have been great to get the SR20DET, but the S13 version of the KA24DET wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. The FR-S/BRZ essentially give us the SR20DET Silvia's performance without the turbo.

My S13 served as my backup track car when I was tracking my much much faster 240Z. I wound up taking it to about half a dozen track events. I loved it! Never felt the need to add more power to it. If it had become a track car, I would eventually have gotten to it, though...

Certainly not mine. I don't own one yet. Probably will get one to replace the S2000 for DD duty in the next year or so, though.


A. There's a lot more to "handling" (particularly in terms of FUN and FEEL) than can be quantified by numbers in a magazine.
B. For a net cost of ~$400 the car's handling and braking capabilities are transformed, and it outruns MS3s and WRXs around Spring Mountain despite having vastly inferior power/weight

But *anyway*, if you have to be able to point to numbers in a magazine to enjoy a car, again, this isn't the car for you.


You and that other guy seem to think that everyone else measures a car's worth/value exactly like you do: by 0-60, 1/4-mile, 60-0, slalom, skidpad, lap times, etc.

News flash: we don't.

Speaking for myself, I preferred the S13 240SX to the Z32 300ZX, even though by the performance numbers it's inferior in every way.

I'd prefer a Miata to a Mustang GT, even though by the performance numbers it's inferior in practically every way

I prefer a Lotus Elise to a Nissan GT-R, even though by the numbers it's inferior.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Long/short: I do like to go fast. But I'd rather drive smaller/lighter/more elemental rwd cars than bigger/heavier/more overwrought cars even if they have vastly superior power/weight and super-wide tires that give them other-worldly grip.

I don't think the FR-S/BRZ will set the world on fire in terms of their performance. I don't think anyone has suggested that here. I don't see where you and that other guy are coming up with your claims of rampant fanboyism.

Everything you have said is... totally reasonable.

And I appreciate that.

Not everyone else has responded quite so evenly.... :happy0180:

Anyway, points well taken.

I'm not driven solely by numbers (else I would have opted for a much cheaper and marginally faster 5.0 Mustang). I too have something loosely resembling a soul moved by qualitative things like handling and braking feel.

The Z is NOT perfect. However, it better suits my particular likes and avoids all but one of my dislikes (i.e., it could stand to lose about 200 lbs -- a point recently echoed by Nissan themselves!).

That said, I bought it as a stop gap before going with the Toyobaru... and now I am really happy I stuck with what I have. I would have easily spent the difference between the Z and FR-S getting the FR-S where I think it should be.

And I would still trade it in if there was a FR-S/BRZ for me.

But there isn't.

Anyway, I see battle lines being drawn on here between the delighted and the disenchanted. I spend my time here as one of the disenchanted who hopes to be enamored again with a future version of the car. I was pleased to see that problems were being listed in the "Toyota is listening" thread -- and quite a few posts addressed a need for higher performance options.

That's pretty much what I am here for. When I hear about a new turbo version, etc. I am interested again.

I don't want to see this car lose customers to the "baby Camaro" or "baby Z" that is in the works.

But it will happen if they don't offer something more enticing. They already lost a bunch of us...

So here's hoping the disenchanted will hang around and offer suggestions for making the car palatable to a wider audience...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by GNS

I would like to point out that, for a fair test, the same tires should have been given to both the MS3 and WRX. The article was a way to illustrate how much of a difference tires make, let's not make it anything more than it really was.

For the record, the car was 2.3 seconds faster on StarSpecs vs. the OEM tires.

On OEM tires, the WRX was 1 second faster and the MS3 1.7 seconds faster.

In any case, I'd rather have an FR-S/BRZ than the MS3 or WRX.

Maybe I *am* a fanboy... Or maybe I've just been around the block enough times to know what I like and what I don't.

I can't help but advocate using numbers as a measure of a car's PERFORMANCE. They readily lend themselves to this! But it should be obvious that I don't judge cars solely by performance numbers.
I *do* generally advocate "driver feel" over numbers, because that's what I'm in it for. I do compete in time trials, but mainly I do track events for the enjoyment and fun and FEEL of it. For sure, going faster is more fun, but I'd rather go slower in a car that I enjoy the feel of than go fast in one that doesn't speak to me.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

I find the choice of tires silly. That's a win-win-win-win for them on cost savings, fuel economy, philosophy, and -- yes -- making the car feel more torquey than it is, but stickier tires should be offered standard.

Wait have you seen the price on those Michelin Primacy tires? They're f***ing expensive! When you think about that, you realize the real reason for the tire choice can not be that so you can burn them up easily drifting (they're not cheap crap that you wouldn't feel bad about destroying). What I am getting is that in Japan perhaps the refinement of a car is more important to consumers (even sports car buyers), and these tires give a more comfortable and quiet ride at the expense of some grip.

I agree that it's a silly choice of tires though. They could've gone with some cheaper ones (hell, Pirelli Cinturato summer performance LRR is much cheaper), knocked 200 bucks off the price tag, and gotten better numbers for the magazines. It's an entry level "pure" sports car, is a little more noise that big of a deal?

[RazBRZ]

Notes. 370 (driver designed the course and is one of the organizations best drivers. had Bridgstone RE-11 tires)
RX-8 ( bone stock, R3 trim package)
My BRZ ( bone stock, fist event at this venue, first event with car and rwd. 2011 speedway autox class champ with my club)
'C Stock' - Total Entries: 6 Trophies: 2 Car Color Times Total
1Tm cs63 Tom 370z Blue
57.271 57.125 57.002+2 56.665 56.734 56.718+4 ****56.665 [-]4.405

2Tm cs91 Raymond 2011 Mazda RX8 Red
63.957+dnf 63.881 62.064 61.070 61.927 61.451 ****61.070 +4.405

3 cs358 Caleb Subaru BRZ Blue
71.441+dnf 64.160+dnf 62.390 61.647 61.279 61.999 ****61.279 +0.209

4 cs308 Nick 1997 BMW M3 White
65.313+dnf 65.411+2 65.030+dnf 62.354 62.137 62.448+dnf ****62.137 +0.858

5 cs454 Bob Lotus Super 7
69.308+dnf 67.566 66.421+dnf 64.916 65.875 63.940 ****63.940 +1.803

6 cs455 Sreven Mazda Miata
72.115+dnf 67.630+dnf 68.659+dnf 67.772 65.387+dnf 69.768+dnf ****67.772 +3.832

Video of my run

[Coheed]

The 370z is overall a better car for the track. But that doesn't mean the BRZ is less fun to drive, even if the 370z is faster. The 370Z is an amazing car, and puts to shame many cars in its price group. Tons of potential in that car.

I like the BRZ, it has a rear seat. That's the only basis of me wanting one over a 370Z. The 370 beats the BRZ/FRS in nearly every instrumented test, and it gets a lot better when it is modified!

I agree the torque dip is concerning, but if a turbo cures that issue... done lol.

I do agree that stickier rubber will go a long way to improve factory numbers. But to add the 100hp the car needs to outgun the 370z, the brakes to handle the extra power, increase the chassis rigidity to cope with the extra weight and power, it will likely gain a couple hundred pounds.

The 370Z is a great value. The BRZ is still an amazing car, just as the 240sx or the rwd corolla. Fun, cheap, and relatively practical. There will always be faster cars, but I'd rather drift as slow as a continent, as long as it is fun. All puns intended.

In all, there are tons of reasons I am a fan of the BRZ. I love this little car. It looks great, has a strong platform to build on and improve, and is more practical for the family to use, or even to give emergency rides to. All that, and it is cheaper than most other cars. I love it. It just works. I've owned fast cars, and i can tell you this: Having something fast doesn't make it fun. Reaching the limits of the car before your own limits... that is fun. Driving a slow car fast, beats driving a fast car slow... any day of the week.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by Coheed

The 370z is overall a better car for the track. But that doesn't mean the BRZ is less fun to drive, even if the 370z is faster. The 370Z is an amazing car, and puts to shame many cars in its price group. Tons of potential in that car.

I like the BRZ, it has a rear seat. That's the only basis of me wanting one over a 370Z. The 370 beats the BRZ/FRS in nearly every instrumented test, and it gets a lot better when it is modified!

I agree the torque dip is concerning, but if a turbo cures that issue... done lol.

I do agree that stickier rubber will go a long way to improve factory numbers. But to add the 100hp the car needs to outgun the 370z, the brakes to handle the extra power, increase the chassis rigidity to cope with the extra weight and power, it will likely gain a couple hundred pounds.

The 370Z is a great value. The BRZ is still an amazing car, just as the 240sx or the rwd corolla. Fun, cheap, and relatively practical. There will always be faster cars, but I'd rather drift as slow as a continent, as long as it is fun. All puns intended.

In all, there are tons of reasons I am a fan of the BRZ. I love this little car. It looks great, has a strong platform to build on and improve, and is more practical for the family to use, or even to give emergency rides to. All that, and it is cheaper than most other cars. I love it. It just works. I've owned fast cars, and i can tell you this: Having something fast doesn't make it fun. Reaching the limits of the car before your own limits... that is fun. Driving a slow car fast, beats driving a fast car slow... any day of the week.

Well said

I'd happily take a BRZ with 100 more hp and 200 more lbs -- that would be perfect.

I just really want factory options... I've done aftermarket boost before... bittersweet memories there.

[Coheed]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Well said

I'd happily take a BRZ with 100 more hp and 200 more lbs -- that would be perfect.

I just really want factory options... I've done aftermarket boost before... bittersweet memories there.

It's really hard to accomplish boost without ruining something, you know? It takes a careful hand to craft a proper turbo setup that you can live with or track forever. Most pursue one setup after another in attempts at capturing the factory spirit when parts don't work together.

But when everything works together, you just think "why did i do that in the first place... when it's so perfect now?" I'm sure we could all save a lot of time and money jumping straight to the end product, but then again we wouldn't be learning so much in the process. The education is worth it.

I've been around the block a few times with several builds. If I do anything with the BRZ it will be well thought and hopefully not mess anything up lol.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by Coheed

It's really hard to accomplish boost without ruining something, you know? It takes a careful hand to craft a proper turbo setup that you can live with or track forever. Most pursue one setup after another in attempts at capturing the factory spirit when parts don't work together.

But when everything works together, you just think "why did i do that in the first place... when it's so perfect now?" I'm sure we could all save a lot of time and money jumping straight to the end product, but then again we wouldn't be learning so much in the process. The education is worth it.

I've been around the block a few times with several builds. If I do anything with the BRZ it will be well thought and hopefully not mess anything up lol.

You captured the bitter and the sweet aspects perfectly.

I just don't want to do it again. I'd rather pay Toyota or Subaru to get me most of the way there.

Plus, it's mucccch easier to upgrade a factory boosted motor than to boost an engine not designed for it.

Dear Toyota/Subaru -- there is a demand for this... charge me for the trouble and make it so.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by blu_

You keep saying Miatas have a lower COG, yet there is no evidence for this besides people trying to calculate it out on forums.

You're absolutely right on this point, the FR-S has a lower CG than the Miata. I noticed a little gem in C&D's review of the best handling cars under $40k. C&D calculated the CG for the Miata, along with a bunch of other cars, so this should put this issue to rest. In reverse order:

GTI: 22.0"
JCW Mini: 21.0"
Mustang GT: 21.0"
Evo X MR: 20.5"
370Z: 20.0"
Miata: 19.0"

And by comparison:

FR-S: 18.1"
Cayman R: 18.0"
LFA: 17.8"
360 Modena: 17.6"
911 GT3: 17.4"