FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by quik1987

What?

Many reviews put handling of the car amongst lotus

Nonsense. In that vid it lost to the "heavy pig" everyone keeps panning (and let's forget how badly it was thrashed by the Mustang...) and its slalom, braking, and skidpad stats are no better (and sometimes worse) than last gen Civics and Celicas. The Lotus would run rings around it.

Everone keeps pointing to its losses as wins. Thats absurd at the face of it. It struggles against a miata (losing on the slalom in the Best Motoring vid, and pulling out close wins on the drag and time attacks), its only real competitor (and I predict the next gen miata will blow it away).

Toyota lowered rather than raised the benchmark. That's why they hype the "fun factor" and say "numbers don't matter". They will to the guys who track the car...

[2forme]

This guy honestly thinks the torque dip is a major design flaw and can't be overcome with simple tuning. Wow.

Tell ya what Jordo, show me another NA 2.0 Liter that makes near 150 ftlbs at 2800, 4500, and 6000 rpm. You lied, you never wanted to like this car. It shows by how far you're stretching things to suit your argument. Either that or you're not really sure how these cars are actually engineered... Either way it's all good. I'll enjoy my BRZ and you'll enjoy your keyboard.

And that video shows a stock FRS facing off against an apparently modified Z.... again wow.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

I guarantee you it's more fun driving a GT-R in any course of the road, or Lambos, Ferrari. They're all heavier. If you think otherwise, you're obviously cheating yourself just to feel better on your own 86.

It's more fun driving a $80,000 or $200,000 cars on any road compared to a $25,000 car? As absurd as this statement is, it's false. I don't live on the Nurburgring. I don't live my life 1/4 mile at a time. I live in Boston. I drive to the airport. The roads suck and they have low speed limits. My BRZ feels fun doing maybe 10-15mph over the limit. Breaking the tires loose a little in a controllable manner at sane speeds is pretty fun. My old STI was torture on my commute because it didn't feel fun unless I was at least 20mph over the speed limit.

Aside from the snotty feeling of driving an expensive car, I would guess on most mortal commutes a BRZ would be a funner drivers car. I'll one up that and say that a Miata would be better than a BRZ on a nice sunny day.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

blah blah blah

Just because you had no idea what a sports car was before this discussion didn't mean they didn't exist. This is how a toddler thinks by the way. If they don't see it, it doesn't exist. Miata, S2k, Rx8 and Cayman/Boxster have been out for a long time and you know what? Dumb people like you have been saying the same thing.

Miata? NOT ENOUGH POWER. GIRLS CAR
S2k? NOT ENOUGH POWER. SCARY!
Rx8? NOT ENOUGH POWER. NO TORK!
Boxster? NOT ENOUGH POWER. GIRLS CAR
Cayman? NOT ENOUGH POWER. 911 WANNABE!

I'm done talking to you losers.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by quik1987

What?

Many reviews put handling of the car amongst lotus

haha. what?

Originally Posted by industrial

It's more fun driving a $80,000 or $200,000 cars on any road compared to a $25,000 car? As absurd as this statement is, it's false. I don't live on the Nurburgring. I don't live my life 1/4 mile at a time. I live in Boston. I drive to the airport. The roads suck and they have low speed limits. My BRZ feels fun doing maybe 10-15mph over the limit. Breaking the tires loose a little in a controllable manner at sane speeds is pretty fun. My old STI was torture on my commute because it didn't feel fun unless I was at least 20mph over the speed limit.

Aside from the snotty feeling of driving an expensive car, I would guess on most mortal commutes a BRZ would be a funner drivers car. I'll one up that and say that a Miata would be better than a BRZ on a nice sunny day.

thats because the sti is boring. while i agree with the fact that a miata or the like can make more pedestrian drives fun because of the low limits, things like corvettes are so much fun its stupid.

[raz0rbladez909]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Nonsense. In that vid it lost to the "heavy pig" everyone keeps panning (and let's forget how badly it was thrashed by the Mustang...) and its slalom, braking, and skidpad stats are no better (and sometimes worse) than last gen Civics and Celicas. The Lotus would run rings around it.

Everone keeps pointing to its losses as wins. Thats absurd at the face of it. It struggles against a miata (losing on the slalom in the Best Motoring vid, and pulling out close wins on the drag and time attacks), its only real competitor (and I predict the next gen miata will blow it away).

Toyota lowered rather than raised the benchmark. That's why they hype the "fun factor" and say "numbers don't matter". They will to the guys who track the car...

No shit the Lotus would run rings around it, it has nearly the same horsepower and weighs like 7-800lbs less. Not to mention it's what, double the price?

Apparently you didn't notice that the BRZ was also stock while the Z was actually setup for Gymkhana and won by slightly over a second. I find it funny that you keep insisting on bashing the car because it isn't what you expected. Sorry the Toyota/Subaru engineers didn't consult you when building the car, but the fun aspect is obviously helping sell the car. (JUST LIKE IT DID FOR THE MX-5/Miata.) How are 370z sales going btw? (I already know the answer to that.)

I find it funny that you say Toyota lowered the benchmark, when I'd say they did exactly what they set out to do and made an affordable Sports Car, no matter if you think so or not. I have no doubt that if they wanted to compete with the Z, it would've hardly been a problem, but it would've been much more expensive than their target price for the car. Tossing something like let's say an IS-F engine in the FRS would leave the z in the dust.

[Jordo!]

I'm mainly crticising the handling and braking, which doessnt really set any benchmarks. It can be matched by a 12 year old stock 7th gen Celica GT-S.

The torque dip is unacceptable, and if not a "flaw", then a major limitation.

What's interesting is that if this car were an FF it would probably be called a "sporty" car, a "hot hatch" (notwithstanding a traditonal boot), or a "tuner" car.

Going soley by power to weight, if they could have kept this car in Miata or MR2 territory (sub 2500 lbs) it would have been more brilliant, would brake betterr, acelerate faster, etc.

But they didn't., so even with 30 more bhp, its a drivers race against a mx5. The RX8 and S2K are much better performing cars (albeit, much more expensive).
Honestly, they mainly suceeded in making the mx5 look more impressive.


Also, I'm not a "z fanboy". I think Nissan did a very good job with the car, but I'm not bblind to its limitations. Actually the next gen is supposed to be lighter and possibly boosted with a more fuel efficient motor. That's a step in the right direction.

Anyway, the frs is a great starting point for a tuner. Out of the box, not so impressive.


I give the car an A as a sporty commuter car and a B- as a purpose built sports car.

Fwiw, I give the 370z an A- as a purpose built sports car and a B as a road car.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

My central argument is that until the advent of the twins, performance bechmarks of higher end cars defined the ideal,

??? Ideal? If you're talking lap times, faster = more ideal. "Higher end" cars will get their asses handed to them by much lighterweight reasonably well-developed track cars (I would eat Vipers, Z06s, Porsche turbos for lunch in my 240Z, and it wasn't even a dedicated track car).

("good" is somewhat subjective, but raccecar builders generally endeavor to reach < 10 lbs per hp, so closer to that is better than further)

Race car builders build for the best power/weight they can get in their class. In Spec Miata that would be ~14-15 lb/hp. In Formula Ford, more like 6-7 lb/hp. It's not like anyone's aiming for 10.

and high grip might be considered essential. "Lightweight" is somewhat relative, and without taking power:weight into account, becomes meaningless.

Power:weight of course is a huge predictor of performance potential. But for a street/sometime-track car, tossability and FUN are often more important. Lighter-weight = more engaging, more entertaining, more FUN.

Toyota selected handling and braking as their benchmarks, and fell short. (That's my recent discovery that I found disappointing).

TIRES. Simple tire swap and no disappointments. I promise. Car and Driver went 2.3 seconds faster around Spring Mountain simply by going to 215/45-17 StarSpecs. 2.3 seconds!

They chose light weight as their essential minimum, and did okay on power but dropped the ball on torque (hello, huge loss of torque in the midrange!).

Want torque? Again, other cars beckon...

Finally they abandoned grip for slip,

TIRES. It is INFINITELY easier to add sticky tires to an FR-S than it is to remove 500 lb. from an overweight car.

which had the dual benefit of alluring the drift fans while concealing how underpowered the car really is.

Um, I don't think that's why they went with the tires they did. Probably found they could save a pile of money by just using OEM tires they already had on the Prius.

Last but not least they concealed all of these limitations by crafting a philosophy that runs completely counter to a long history of race track inspired cars: they said numbers don't matter.

Again, if numbers in a magazine matter most to you, other cars....

Its a great car, and i'd much rather own that than a camry, but as a sports car, "entry level" is almost an understatement.

For me, TRUE sports cars should be spartan and simple to the point of being well-suspended rwd economy cars. 370Z has FAR too much luxury sedan in its genes...

Everyone says the DNA of this car is the Trueno AE86.

I don't say that. It's really a modern embodiment of the S13 240SX.

Well, that car was not a sports car. It was their sporty commuter car. The Celica and the Supra (derived from the Celica) were the "sportscars", and their DNA is clearly recessive here.

Actually, if you ask me this car is a lot more like a modern version of the 80s rwd Celica than the AE86. But it's even more of a modern S13.

Its a great sporty commuter car; it is a bit of a letdown as a sports car to many of us who were equally captivated by the "dream".

For me, it's still more of a "sports car" than the 2-seat version of the bulky, massive, lux-oriented G37 (aka 370Z). Not really a letdown at all for me, it looked like it would fill the viod left by the 240SX, and it did that precisely.
The 350Z and 370Z, however, were HUGE letdowns to me. Definitely should have left the "X" in their names, they aren't Zs in the same spirit as the original...

Toyota needs to make more true sports car (high performance)l options available. Nevermind 3 different trims for the stupid fake fender vents.

What I'd like to see them do: remove rear seats, shove the engine, front seats, and windshield aft about 20" to make a new 2000GT-esque sports car. Turbo option maybe?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

I guarantee you it's more fun driving a GT-R in any course of the road, or Lambos, Ferrari. They're all heavier. If you think otherwise, you're obviously cheating yourself just to feel better on your own 86.

I don't own an 86.
I have driven my fair share of big, heavy, powerful cars at the track. Smaller, lighterweight cars are generally more fun. Smaller, lighterweight cars with gonzo power are even MORE fun!

Haven't driven Ferraris or Lamborghinis, would welcome the opportunity. I still find them oversized/overwrought/overweight for "sports" cars. I really think they should build models closer to Lotus Elise ideals. Then I might buy one...
GT-R is a cool car that I *have* driven (and been driven around the track in), with insane performance capabilities for its size/weight/power:weight, but it can't hold a candle to a Miata for driving immediacy and FUN.

To each his own. Honestly don't know why some of you guys are even in an FR-S/BRZ forum. The kinds of cars you worship? It's not *that* kind of car.

[crazyyankeefan]

Again, have you guys seen how absurd you fanboys have become? Just cuz your car is light, it doesn't mean it's the best handling car ever. All you keep thinking a $25k car can handle better than all those supercars are over the top of your head and delusional. You would never see ppl driving Z saying it's better than GT-R or Lambo, but apparently you 86 fanboys think otherwise of your car.

[MVJ1975]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Again, have you guys seen how absurd you fanboys have become? Just cuz your car is light, it doesn't mean it's the best handling car ever. All you keep thinking a $25k car can handle better than all those supercars are over the top of your head and delusional. You would never see ppl driving Z saying it's better than GT-R or Lambo, but apparently you 86 fanboys think otherwise of your car.

I don't see anyone saying that. You certainly won't hear me say it.

The FR-S is a well-balanced, fun, nimble little back-to-basics sports car. That's all it is.

[raz0rbladez909]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Again, have you guys seen how absurd you fanboys have become? Just cuz your car is light, it doesn't mean it's the best handling car ever. All you keep thinking a $25k car can handle better than all those supercars are over the top of your head and delusional. You would never see ppl driving Z saying it's better than GT-R or Lambo, but apparently you 86 fanboys think otherwise of your car.

I think it's absurd that you spend so much time on a car forum for a car you don't even own, to argue about dumb bullshit. I'm not going to go on a Z forum and try to convince everyone that their car sucks compared to "Car A or B" and that they are fanboys for even comparing them. If someone is confident in their purchase and happy they bought it let them be. If they think they'd be happier with their car than a Lambo or a Ferrari then thats what they think. Who are you to tell them what they'd be happier with? And I call bullshit on the Z owners not trying to compare their cars to the GT-R, I used to own a 350Z and there are plenty of pompous a-holes who think the car is Gods gift to the world and that a twin turbo kit automatically makes them competitive with anything and everything.

[jarviz]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

Again, have you guys seen how absurd you fanboys have become? Just cuz your car is light, it doesn't mean it's the best handling car ever. All you keep thinking a $25k car can handle better than all those supercars are over the top of your head and delusional. You would never see ppl driving Z saying it's better than GT-R or Lambo, but apparently you 86 fanboys think otherwise of your car.

I'm just skimming through this thread and here for thrill. Not sure what you're talking about but I'll easily take a GT-R or a Lambo anyday over an FRS.... assuming I'm not paying for gas and maintenance haha. I can only speak for myself when I say. for 25K, you get a hell of a fun driving experience and not many other cars offer that at that price.

[Jordo!]

I think it's fair to say that Toyota delivered a great car for the money (but do the extra bits on the BRZ warrant the price hike...?), but some options for those who want to get more out of it without relying on the aftermarket would be nice.

For example, I find the three versions of trim for the stupid fake fender grills to be pointless -- even more pointless than the fake grills themselves. Someone make a better set of fenders for this car!

I found the options for hardcore brakes surprising -- until I saw the actual braking distances it needs stock.

I find the choice of tires silly. That's a win-win-win-win for them on cost savings, fuel economy, philosophy, and -- yes -- making the car feel more torquey than it is, but stickier tires should be offered standard.

15 years ago this car would be up against the WRX and the Evo, which Tada san referred to as "boring" to drive with all their power and big sticky tires (huh? what?).

Toyota has rewritten the rules to favor their new car, and that is an impressive feat of marketing.

And to whomever likened it to a Silvia -- over here we got the incredibly lackluster, non turbo, 240sx. The Japanese kept the better car for themselves, like they always do.

Anyway, people rebuild those things and then slap huge turbos on them. Don't see too many people in ones running at stock levels of power... whatever resemblance there may be (or not be) to that car, it speaks volumes of how much MORE fun a lightweight car can be when we shift from under/reasonably powered to overpowered.

I think I'm bruising a few egos here with my harsh, but I think not unfair, complaints... that said, I've actually written a number of very positive things about the car (which were ignored), and all of my criticisms are grounded in stats, prmarily about braking and handling, which the car is supposed to be phenomenal at (it's not, based on very basic benchmarks).

I'm not saying it isn't a good car for the $$$ or that it isn't fun to drive.

But there seem to be a broad swath of folks here who are so enamored with the car they are oblivious to its limitations. THAT is fanboyism.