"Underpowered"... compared to...? - Page 7 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Memphis · 08-02-2012, 11:46 AM

I think that a lot of people have blinders on when it comes to the passion for this car.

This car is a blast to drive. But just because its a blast to drive does not mean that there are cars out there (RX8, Miata) that cant beat it or keep up with it.

A lot of people love the handling of the car and how responsive it is. Great. But that does not mean that a boat like a Mustang or Camaro will get ate alive because they dont have the nimblest of handling.

This car is not the end all be all car.

Grishbok · 08-02-2012, 05:52 PM

I get the impression the majority of young owners are missing the entire purpose and tribute of this car. The golden age of sports cars was (arguably) the mid-late 80's, when safety regulations were low, cars were feather-light, and steering was razor-sharp. The sports cars of those times are and will always be hailed as the best that was ever built. After the safety regulations came about, the cars became so unbelievably heavy, it was nearly impossible to create a car that could turn in as well, and maintain a perfect balance as well as those of the mid-80's, (perfect example, mazda rx7 FC).

The scion FRS/BRZ/gt86 was built with the philosophy of the mid-80's in mind at every step. Making the car super light and razor sharp. If you measure performance in straight line "drag race" numbers, don't even think about purchasing this car. If you notice, the fastest drag cars out there are setup so they can barely make a turn without a tow-car. The 86 was built for the old livery. It was constructed to provide a modern day example of the design philosphy which gave rise to some of the greatest drivers and cars in history. It was built around the perfect harmony between driver and machine. If you feel like you need more power in this car, you should look elsewhere because you will be missing the entire purpose of the symbiotic design of this car.

This car is the closest modern day example to the race-prepared rx7's and porches of the 80's. They are built to be fluid and seemless, not drag queens. This car takes a good driver to be fast and an excellent driver to unlock the cars potential, the majority of the 300+ hp cars are the opposite in aiding the masking of driver errors with hp numbers. The majority of those owners will tell you straight up, "yeah but my car is faster in the straight" and absolutely anyone who is even remotely close to being a real racer, will laugh in that gentlemans face and promptly tell him to get off my track.

Superhatch · 08-02-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grishbok

Stuff

I want this as my signature.

Grishbok · 08-02-2012, 06:31 PM

haha, thatd be an honor

Shagaliscious · 08-02-2012, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz

RX8, Mazda 3 Miata Mx5 and I can go on and on....

I agree with the rx8 & miata, but did you seriously just put a FWD car down? It handles great for FWD, but if you want to bring up FWD, the FWD you should be mentioning is the DC2. Hailed by many car reviewers/testers as the best ever.

I would also like you to go on and on with all the other cars you have in mind.

Grishbok · 08-02-2012, 07:09 PM

FWD cars are not inherently worse than rwd cars. A well tuned suspension and LSD used properly with modulating the brake with the left foot, trail into the corner, can provide remarkable cornering speeds. The cobalt SS turbocharged (made from 2008-2010) performed the nurbergring in 8:22. That is an incredible time for a front wheel drive epsilon II chassis, and a time which desimates a ton of rwd and awd cars. The FRS is a great car not because of its native RWD, but because it encourages and rewards the balanced attacking of the corners, carying more speed into, through, and out of the turn than any of above mentioned cars.

The FRS can most closely be compared to a miata, the RX-8 is definitely at a disadvantage with its weight and last-second design change to make it more family friendly, which resulted in an upset and confused chassis. The only reason the rx-8 performs as well as it does is the advantage of its Renesis rev range, rotary engine. The rotary engine allows it to rev forever, and its inherent centrifical focused design enables it to do so fluidly. It will loose mph in the corner comparatively to a miata and the frs without some serious stiffening of the chassis and fine tuning of the suspension and an increase in torque delivery from the engine. A problem acknowledged and subsequently rectified with the mid 80's introduction of the rx-7 FC Turbo-II. What we can learn from this introduction of forced induction, is that it creates a harsh torque curve and without careful concideration of the turbo, can very easily distinguish a good driver from a poor one.

Shagaliscious · 08-02-2012, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grishbok

FWD cars are not inherently worse than rwd cars. A well tuned suspension and LSD used properly with modulating the brake with the left foot, trail into the corner, can provide remarkable cornering speeds. The cobalt SS turbocharged (made from 2008-2010) performed the nurbergring in 8:22. That is an incredible time for a front wheel drive epsilon II chassis, and a time which desimates a ton of rwd and awd cars. The FRS is a great car not because of its native RWD, but because it encourages and rewards the balanced attacking of the corners, carying more speed into, through, and out of the turn than any of above mentioned cars.

I will admit I don't know much about the Mazda 3, but I don't think the Mazda 3 comes with a LSD. I realize there are great handling FWD cars, but I don't think the Mazda 3 is one of them. It seems like it is not too bad actually with handling...reviews have good things to say.

Grishbok · 08-02-2012, 09:03 PM

The mazda 3 is a kidney stone of a commuter car, the mazdaSPEED 3 is what i presume the comparison was intended for. That mazda road herpe comes with a conical limited slip differential as standard.

R8 · 08-03-2012, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grishbok

the RX-8 is definitely at a disadvantage with its weight and last-second design change to make it more family friendly, which resulted in an upset and confused chassis...

LOL, you seriously think the RX-8's chassis and handling is upset and confused?

And the Mazda3 is a "kidney stone" of a handling car?

Seriously? Oh my. Oh my oh my...

Lonewolf · 08-03-2012, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grishbok

The mazda 3 is a kidney stone of a commuter car, the mazdaSPEED 3 is what i presume the comparison was intended for. That mazda road herpe comes with a conical limited slip differential as standard.

Uhhh, you're joking right? The RX8 and the MS3 that I test drove were sublime for stock cars...
Between this thread and the regrets thread...this guy

SkitterSkotter · 08-03-2012, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R8

LOL, you seriously think the RX-8's chassis and handling is upset and confused?

And the Mazda3 is a "kidney stone" of a handling car?

Seriously? Oh my. Oh my oh my...

Real talk. The Mazda 3 has an amazing chassis and is probably the best fwd platform that I've ever driven (never been in an ITR but I know it's considered the best). Also the rx8 always got marks for its amazing handling, I remember jeremy clarkson going on and on about how awesome of a car it was. I always thought the rx8 was considered somewhat of a benchmark for rwd handling for inexpensive rwd cars.

Grishbok · 08-03-2012, 01:07 AM

ehhhh... no. The RX-8 is smooth, but a benchmark absolutely not. The mazdaspeed 3 continuously loses time and time again to its competitors the cobalt SS turbo and focus rs. It wins on interior styling and fit and finish only. The rx7 FC, and FD was absolutely a benchmark for rwd, the rx-8 not so much and compared to the heritage of the rotary engine and its more immediate FD predescessor, possibly the biggest disappointment from mazda. The FD was beautifully sculpted and incredibly well crafted, and when you compare it to the rx8, the soul of the rotary is seemingly lost and confused. It was a thoroughbred sports car in FD form, in rx-8 form its trying to be a people-carrier with the 2.7 doors and other unescesssary additions.

fatoni · 08-03-2012, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkitterSkotter

Real talk. The Mazda 3 has an amazing chassis and is probably the best fwd platform that I've ever driven (never been in an ITR but I know it's considered the best). Also the rx8 always got marks for its amazing handling, I remember jeremy clarkson going on and on about how awesome of a car it was. I always thought the rx8 was considered somewhat of a benchmark for rwd handling for inexpensive rwd cars.

kinda worth noting is that when the msp came out they say it outhandled the itr and the 3 is its successor although im sure fwd handling gets overshadowed by crazy power so its tough to find a direct comparison. i wouldnt be surprised if there are a few other honorable mentions like the mini or the cobalt ss

Grishbok · 08-03-2012, 01:12 AM

Between this and the other thread, im trying to head off all the youngsters that think because they managed to get inflated financing on their first or second car, they know what they're talking about when it comes to good handling or design. Im a seasoned vet both on and off the track, but its up to you if you want to listen or not, i write out of boredom these days after a cracked L5 put an end to this season for me.

08-03-2012, 01:07 AM	#96
Grishbok Volunteer Fire and Rescue Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: Ambulance... sideways. Location: No. VA Posts: 546 Thanks: 97 Thanked 350 Times in 166 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	ehhhh... no. The RX-8 is smooth, but a benchmark absolutely not. The mazdaspeed 3 continuously loses time and time again to its competitors the cobalt SS turbo and focus rs. It wins on interior styling and fit and finish only. The rx7 FC, and FD was absolutely a benchmark for rwd, the rx-8 not so much and compared to the heritage of the rotary engine and its more immediate FD predescessor, possibly the biggest disappointment from mazda. The FD was beautifully sculpted and incredibly well crafted, and when you compare it to the rx8, the soul of the rotary is seemingly lost and confused. It was a thoroughbred sports car in FD form, in rx-8 form its trying to be a people-carrier with the 2.7 doors and other unescesssary additions. __________________ It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow.

08-03-2012, 01:12 AM	#98
Grishbok Volunteer Fire and Rescue Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: Ambulance... sideways. Location: No. VA Posts: 546 Thanks: 97 Thanked 350 Times in 166 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Between this and the other thread, im trying to head off all the youngsters that think because they managed to get inflated financing on their first or second car, they know what they're talking about when it comes to good handling or design. Im a seasoned vet both on and off the track, but its up to you if you want to listen or not, i write out of boredom these days after a cracked L5 put an end to this season for me. __________________ It's more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Odometer Functions - "S" & "G" What are they?	kablammo	BRZ First-Gen (2012+) — General Topics	59	12-01-2013 01:28 AM
NEW Volk Racing TE37SL "Black Edition" Different finish, same low price!	Speed Element	Wheels and Tires	19	07-19-2012 03:27 PM
Toyota Holds "FT-86 Fastest Painted Website" Event to Help Launch FR-S / FT-86	Snoopyalien24	Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum	35	11-26-2011 08:56 AM
Subaru BRZ Prototype First Drive Review: "Off the Chart" (Motor Trend)	Hachiroku	BRZ First-Gen (2012+) — General Topics	67	11-09-2011 06:58 PM

08-02-2012, 11:46 AM	#85
Memphis Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Drives: Scion FantasticRoad-Sex Location: Take a wild guess. Posts: 517 Thanks: 31 Thanked 126 Times in 75 Posts Mentioned: 4 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I think that a lot of people have blinders on when it comes to the passion for this car. This car is a blast to drive. But just because its a blast to drive does not mean that there are cars out there (RX8, Miata) that cant beat it or keep up with it. A lot of people love the handling of the car and how responsive it is. Great. But that does not mean that a boat like a Mustang or Camaro will get ate alive because they dont have the nimblest of handling. This car is not the end all be all car.

08-02-2012, 05:52 PM	#86
Grishbok Volunteer Fire and Rescue Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: Ambulance... sideways. Location: No. VA Posts: 546 Thanks: 97 Thanked 350 Times in 166 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I get the impression the majority of young owners are missing the entire purpose and tribute of this car. The golden age of sports cars was (arguably) the mid-late 80's, when safety regulations were low, cars were feather-light, and steering was razor-sharp. The sports cars of those times are and will always be hailed as the best that was ever built. After the safety regulations came about, the cars became so unbelievably heavy, it was nearly impossible to create a car that could turn in as well, and maintain a perfect balance as well as those of the mid-80's, (perfect example, mazda rx7 FC). The scion FRS/BRZ/gt86 was built with the philosophy of the mid-80's in mind at every step. Making the car super light and razor sharp. If you measure performance in straight line "drag race" numbers, don't even think about purchasing this car. If you notice, the fastest drag cars out there are setup so they can barely make a turn without a tow-car. The 86 was built for the old livery. It was constructed to provide a modern day example of the design philosphy which gave rise to some of the greatest drivers and cars in history. It was built around the perfect harmony between driver and machine. If you feel like you need more power in this car, you should look elsewhere because you will be missing the entire purpose of the symbiotic design of this car. This car is the closest modern day example to the race-prepared rx7's and porches of the 80's. They are built to be fluid and seemless, not drag queens. This car takes a good driver to be fast and an excellent driver to unlock the cars potential, the majority of the 300+ hp cars are the opposite in aiding the masking of driver errors with hp numbers. The majority of those owners will tell you straight up, "yeah but my car is faster in the straight" and absolutely anyone who is even remotely close to being a real racer, will laugh in that gentlemans face and promptly tell him to get off my track.

08-02-2012, 06:31 PM	#88
Grishbok Volunteer Fire and Rescue Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: Ambulance... sideways. Location: No. VA Posts: 546 Thanks: 97 Thanked 350 Times in 166 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	haha, thatd be an honor

08-02-2012, 07:09 PM	#90
Grishbok Volunteer Fire and Rescue Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: Ambulance... sideways. Location: No. VA Posts: 546 Thanks: 97 Thanked 350 Times in 166 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	FWD cars are not inherently worse than rwd cars. A well tuned suspension and LSD used properly with modulating the brake with the left foot, trail into the corner, can provide remarkable cornering speeds. The cobalt SS turbocharged (made from 2008-2010) performed the nurbergring in 8:22. That is an incredible time for a front wheel drive epsilon II chassis, and a time which desimates a ton of rwd and awd cars. The FRS is a great car not because of its native RWD, but because it encourages and rewards the balanced attacking of the corners, carying more speed into, through, and out of the turn than any of above mentioned cars. The FRS can most closely be compared to a miata, the RX-8 is definitely at a disadvantage with its weight and last-second design change to make it more family friendly, which resulted in an upset and confused chassis. The only reason the rx-8 performs as well as it does is the advantage of its Renesis rev range, rotary engine. The rotary engine allows it to rev forever, and its inherent centrifical focused design enables it to do so fluidly. It will loose mph in the corner comparatively to a miata and the frs without some serious stiffening of the chassis and fine tuning of the suspension and an increase in torque delivery from the engine. A problem acknowledged and subsequently rectified with the mid 80's introduction of the rx-7 FC Turbo-II. What we can learn from this introduction of forced induction, is that it creates a harsh torque curve and without careful concideration of the turbo, can very easily distinguish a good driver from a poor one.

08-02-2012, 09:03 PM	#92
Grishbok Volunteer Fire and Rescue Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: Ambulance... sideways. Location: No. VA Posts: 546 Thanks: 97 Thanked 350 Times in 166 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	The mazda 3 is a kidney stone of a commuter car, the mazdaSPEED 3 is what i presume the comparison was intended for. That mazda road herpe comes with a conical limited slip differential as standard.

User Name		Remember Me?
Password