Real gaskets for the oil pan

[fastisfun]

Seems like an opportunity exists for someone to create and sell actual gaskets for the oil pan.

Once a real gasket was available it would be relatively simple to inspect the oil pickup for RTV as often as I wished.

Otherwise, I am concerned about proper re-application of the RTV after an inspection. I suspect the robot is probably more capable than myself. Not to mention cleaning off the old RTV more than once is lots of work (before installing a real gasket)

Just thinking out load. My car has 8,000 miles and I am going to drive it regardless.

A separate wild idea would be to force some air into the crankcase with hope of dislodging the gunk from the pickup and into the oil pan. And then flushing more oil through the engine into the oil pan and hoping it drained out. Or perhaps using suction through the dip stick tube.

Meanwhile, I guess periodic removal of the oil filter and an inspection of it is pretty easy.

[KillerBMotorsport]

Originally Posted by fastisfun

Seems like an opportunity exists for someone to create and sell actual gaskets for the oil pan.

Once a real gasket was available it would be relatively simple to inspect the oil pickup for RTV as often as I wished.

There are at least three for the EJ engines. Likely FA20 versions as well. For the EJs we've tried them all and they all leaked, in a very short period of time. Two were rubber, one was cork. The problem is that the oil pans on these cars are thin.

If you put a bare pan on a bare block and tighten the bolts to spec, between ever bolt is an air gap. You need to be under spec to prevent the pan from distorting. If you over-torque, even a small amount, the gaps grow and grow. If you pull some intact OEM gasket off, you can see variations in thickness close to bolts and between. That same thing happens with a non-adhesive gasket, but without the stickiness. So, guess where they leak?

Originally Posted by fastisfun

e air into the crankcase with hope of dislodging the gunk from the pickup and into the oil pan. And then flushing more oil through the engine into the oil pan and hoping it drained out. Or perhaps using suction through the dip stick tube.

Already discussed. The top of the pickup is blocked by the oil pump. Pulling or pushing air is going to have zero effect. Unless you got a tiny vacuum that could reach up inside the oil pickup.

[KillerBMotorsport]

we've never had issues with the Ultra Grey.

There are also other great products from Porsche and Audi that work exceptionally well.

[soundman98]

so then the first solution would be a replacement oil pan-- either finned, or at least thick enough that it doesn't deform under bolt torque

[mycrors7]

Hasn’t it been concluded that the rtv is not only from the oil pan, but from the timing chain cover?

I’d imagine far more rtv coming from the timing chain cover than the oil pan

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by mycrors7

Hasn’t it been concluded that the rtv is not only from the oil pan, but from the timing chain cover?

I’d imagine far more rtv coming from the timing chain cover than the oil pan

Yeah, application error is more likely on the timing cover. The oil pan is pretty easy to do. There are a lot of areas the engine is RTV’d. Case halves, upper oil pan, cam carriers, timing cover, oil pan, some misc covers. The valve cover also gets a smidge.

[fastisfun]

The idea is to be able to easily remove the oil pan for inspection. True the timing cover and perhaps other areas still have RTV. But you could inspect and remove any errant RTV easily from the pickup tube.

A more robust pan and traditional gasket could be the solution? I think soundman has some sound thinking.

[NoHaveMSG]

There are cast pans out there.

[Midnightsky]

As always, every build they do is on a budget, the 2nd Gen is no different. Im sure they were counting their beans on alot of stuff, this apparently was one of those areas. They knew aftermarket would pickup the slack for those who are pushing their cars hard. The majority of the remaining owners probably don't push hard enough to justify it anyway.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Midnightsky

As always, every build they do is on a budget, the 2nd Gen is no different. Im sure they were counting their beans on alot of stuff, this apparently was one of those areas. They knew aftermarket would pickup the slack for those who are pushing their cars hard. The majority of the remaining owners probably don't push hard enough to justify it anyway.

but it's important to note that the fa20 has never had an official gasket offered. anywhere, since 2013. and the fa20 was offered to aftermarket companies to develop mods before production began to ensure there was a healthy aftermarket when the vehicle launched, to continue the idea of the scion brand...

gasket material is easy to come by, so it's not that difficult to make, technically. though i'd feel a lot better about a multi-material gasket...

given the age of the 1st gen, i don't believe it's either an expectation on subaru/toyota's part that the aftermarket will pick up the slack, or given the lack of aftermarket companies at this point not filling the role, i don't believe it's as large of an issue as everyone is making things out to be either.

i believe that the engineers had fully tested and implemented what was the best cost-effective and reliable solution they could. i don't deny they likely tried saving money on the oil pan metal thickness-- but rtv and a thinner pan is always going to be cheaper than a custom gasket and a thicker pan, i would venture a guess that it would come out to almost half the cost.

if it comes to light that there was a misapplication of the product, that is not an engineering fault. that's a programming/manufacturing fault. which is a very different type of issue.

we aren't seeing any of these oil pans leak, or at least, no one is complaining about it. which means that the rtv is doing exactly what it's designed to do. fill an uneven gap that's created by using a thinner metal for the pan, which allows the pan to flex and move slightly as the bolts are brought up to the specified torque. this indicates that all of the materials engineering was done correctly.

[mycrors7]

Originally Posted by fastisfun

The idea is to be able to easily remove the oil pan for inspection. True the timing cover and perhaps other areas still have RTV. But you could inspect and remove any errant RTV easily from the pickup tube.

A more robust pan and traditional gasket could be the solution? I think soundman has some sound thinking.

You can save yourself a headache and just drill an access hole right under the pickup, weld on a bung and place a second drain plug there.

Pull the oil pan once. Seal it up, and check it every oil change

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by mycrors7

You can save yourself a headache and just drill an access hole right under the pickup, weld on a bung and place a second drain plug there.

Pull the oil pan once. Seal it up, and check it every oil change

That’s actually not a bad idea.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by mycrors7

You can save yourself a headache and just drill an access hole right under the pickup, weld on a bung and place a second drain plug there.

Pull the oil pan once. Seal it up, and check it every oil change

Or...

Pull the pan.
Clean out anything you find.
CAREFULLY apply new sealant.
Reinstall stock pan as is.
Change the oil on a regular basis.

The probability of getting new chunks breaking off on an ongoing basis is remote. It is much more likly it is a one time clean.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Or...

Pull the pan.
Clean out anything you find.
CAREFULLY apply new sealant.
Reinstall stock pan as is.
Change the oil on a regular basis.

The probability of getting new chunks breaking off on an ongoing basis is remote. It is much more likly it is a one time clean.

i feel like that's a terrible concept though. as we all saw with the valve spring recall, human application, especially non-specifically-trained-human-application of rtv is much more likely to fail and be a problem.

so in a lot of ways, once one opens the pan and re-applies rtv, there's just as much of a possibility that their own work will fail, leading to repeated concerns that are justifiable enough to open the pan again, and again, and again.

for those that are concerned, it's literally 'best' to drop the oil pan EVERY oil change...