Is it my driving or is it the pads?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

This past weekend, there was a discussion in hpde class about braking. The instructor opined that is was better to apply the brakes harder for a short period rather than softer for a longer period. Keep in mind that this was mostly a novice class. I could get my FRS slowed for turn in at turn 1 at Summit Point starting about 350'. Other cars in my group would start braking even before 500' ft. If all other things were somewhat equal, who's pads would last longer?

You want life? CE2. Straight up there's no other pad for the 86 that will outlast CE2.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Can you street the CGS?

The official answer is that you shouldn't street drive any race pad.

Many folks do so anyways.

[blsfrs]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You want life? CE2. Straight up there's no other pad for the 86 that will outlast CE2.

Mike, thanks for your reply. My question was more about driving style than brake material. CSG pads get good reviews here and I'll probably get some when my current stuff is used up.


My question is, if 2 cars are equal, one novice driver brakes before 500' and the other less novicey driver brakes at 350' who's brakes will last longer?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

Mike, thanks for your reply. My question was more about driving style than brake material. CSG pads get good reviews here and I'll probably get some when my current stuff is used up.


My question is, if 2 cars are equal, one novice driver brakes before 500' and the other less novicey driver brakes at 350' who's brakes will last longer?

The driver who brakes before 500'.

However, the instructor's goal wasn't to make brakes last longer, but to boil down information into just a simple bite for novices.

[blsfrs]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The driver who brakes before 500'.

However, the instructor's goal wasn't to make brakes last longer, but to boil down information into just a simple bite for novices.

Part of his thinking process was the shorter time that you are on the brakes, the longer they have to cool between applications. I realize the harder that you are on the brakes, the more heat you build, so there is a trade off.



I agree too, simple bites for novices since building driving skill and knowledge is a gradual process.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by blsfrs

Part of his thinking process was the shorter time that you are on the brakes, the longer they have to cool between applications. I realize the harder that you are on the brakes, the more heat you build, so there is a trade off.



I agree too, simple bites for novices since building driving skill and knowledge is a gradual process.

KE = MV²

The energy isn't changing, only the application. The reason the longer brake is easier is because heat takes time to conduct. Lower heat impulse is less thermal shock.

The shorter the time spent on the brakes, the larger the thermal gradient. An extra second of brake cooling isn't going to make a difference in equilibrium temps; the brakes are cooling the entire time as the temperature differential between rotor and ambient is always there.

[andyk5]

I went back and read the linked brake pad thread end to end. Also read the CSG review thread. Between those two and this one I have learned a massive amount. One thing that is still escaping me is the big brake kits. I saw a post from someone saying he does not want to spend much on pads and CSG Mike I think recommended BBK.


So a big brake kit would eat less of its own pad compared to the same compound on a stock caliper given the exact same deceleration, car, temp, pedal application? Is this due to larger pad and rotor surface providing more material for friction and everything being larger cooling faster since the heat energy built up in the system dur to braking should be identical?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by andyk5

I started all days with everything turned on for the first 2 sessions. Then put it in “track” mode for the rest of the day.

"Track mode" is still too intrusive for track work on the 1st gens.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

What's the pedal dance procedure for the second gen?

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

There isn't.

Is there a "3-second hold on the TC off button" mode like on the 1st gen?
If there is you should definitely try it.

FWIW I run CSG C2 pads on the street between track events that are within a few weeks apart. A bit noisy but liveable and not ridic dusty. Great pads with great bite at the track and last a frankly unbelievably long time. Like 12+ track days. With big Brembo brakes anyway...

[dragoontwo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Is there a "3-second hold on the TC off button" mode like on the 1st gen?
If there is you should definitely try it.

Yes. It has all the modes the first gen has, except pedal dance. For now.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by andyk5

I went back and read the linked brake pad thread end to end. Also read the CSG review thread. Between those two and this one I have learned a massive amount. One thing that is still escaping me is the big brake kits. I saw a post from someone saying he does not want to spend much on pads and CSG Mike I think recommended BBK.


So a big brake kit would eat less of its own pad compared to the same compound on a stock caliper given the exact same deceleration, car, temp, pedal application? Is this due to larger pad and rotor surface providing more material for friction and everything being larger cooling faster since the heat energy built up in the system dur to braking should be identical?

A real BBK is heavier than stock, and has more thermal sink capacity, as well as thermal dissipation capacity. Less thermal stress = less wear.

The trade off is more weight, and more up-front cost, and, potentially some wheel fitment challenges.

But, that's what the CSG Brembo BM4 kit is for. It fits both the 22+ BRZ and GR86 (most kits only fit GR86), and uses a common rotor (Brembo PP shares rotors.... but the CSG Brembo kit was out before the PP was a thing... how funny).

[andyk5]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

A real BBK is heavier than stock, and has more thermal sink capacity, as well as thermal dissipation capacity. Less thermal stress = less wear.

The trade off is more weight, and more up-front cost, and, potentially some wheel fitment challenges.

But, that's what the CSG Brembo BM4 kit is for. It fits both the 22+ BRZ and GR86 (most kits only fit GR86), and uses a common rotor (Brembo PP shares rotors.... but the CSG Brembo kit was out before the PP was a thing... how funny).

Does CSG Brembo BM4 fit stock 17s? If they don’t what is the smallest wheel they’ll fit in? At some point I am going to get 17x9 wheels and run 245 or 255 tires. Might do the BBK as well.

Edit: According to CSG web site they do.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by andyk5

Does CSG Brembo BM4 fit stock 17s? If they don’t what is the smallest wheel they’ll fit in? At some point I am going to get 17x9 wheels and run 245 or 255 tires. Might do the BBK as well.

Edit: According to CSG web site they do.

Depends.... which stock wheels? There are several stock wheels for the GR86.

[Matt93SE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You need to do both front AND rear, or you'll overwork the fronts while the rears aren't contributing.

Good pads will save you frustration at the track; you've already burned up $400 in pads in your photos, and I can tell you'd have gotten more than 3 days out of a set of CSG pads.

Originally Posted by blsfrs

This past weekend, there was a discussion in hpde class about braking. The instructor opined that is was better to apply the brakes harder for a short period rather than softer for a longer period. Keep in mind that this was mostly a novice class. I could get my FRS slowed for turn in at turn 1 at Summit Point starting about 350'. Other cars in my group would start braking even before 500' ft. If all other things were somewhat equal, who's pads would last longer?

I agree with Mike on everything but this portion. He'll get you sorted on the hardware.


in the braking application/ driving habits standpoint, there are a couple theories and here is mine:

Braking harder and shorter puts greater heat into the rotors, but is easier on the pads and reduces pad wear and fluid temps.

The brake pads have some finite "insulation" value as the friction material rejects heat buildup by nature and attempts to keep the heat in the rotor. BUT... a longer, softer brake application squeezes the pads on the rotor longer, which forces more heat into the pads-->pistons-->caliper-->fluid. This causes higher brake fluid temps and greater pad wear.

Thus, a short, HARD application of the brakes keeps the heat in the rotors and out of the pads.

I cannot explain the proper physics behind it, but that's what I've seen and experienced in >20 yrs of doing HPDEs and racing.


Real-world example: my kids both race go karts. Both race the same class and are in the same chassis... Within 5lb overall weight, same engine, tires, brakes, weight distribution, alignment, etc. Their fastest times each day are both within 0.25 sec.
Thus everything is pretty much identical but the driving technique.

My daughter brakes very late and very hard- straightline threshold braking nearly every time. The pads last half a season on her kart- maybe 15-20 race weekends although I've stopped counting hers and just watch the pads and replace when necessary. I wind up changing hers about once a season.

My boy brakes early and soft, and drags the brakes almost to the apex then accelerates out. He gets roughly 3-4 race weekends out of his pads. He also trashes front tires with understeer while the girl wears the rears more.


---Back to cars---
I have experienced the same on track with our endurance racing team. The guys that try to be "easy on the brakes" wind up with cooked brakes before the end of their session and the front tires take a beating as they drag the brakes into the turns, overworking the outer front tire. The veteran racers on the team do a quick stab of the brakes to slow the car then get off them, and we stay within the grip limits of the tires. faster lap times and less wear on both the tires and brakes.


Sooooo to answer your question, the guys that keep their foot of the slow pedal the longest will have longer brake pad life *assuming they're running same lap times* as the guys dragging the brakes over longer distances.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by andyk5

Wait, rlly..it kind of makes sense though.

Ok so ABS bad because increases heat, heat bad because destroys pads. Pedal dance is not available for these cars so I guess heavy braking without engaging abs is would be my goal.


Why is traction control bad? that had nothing to do with brakes? I thought it just takes power away from the rear wheels. Do you mean stability control? I think stability control engages the brakes to keep the car …well stable.

The TC and stability control in our cars uses brake and power reduction to control slip. It absolutely cooks the rear pads if you don't turn it off.