Toyota GR Yaris

[why?]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

I'm guessing the engineers who designed it would have a bit of an idea but they're not telling. Given the car hasn't been released I'm suggesting no one on the internet knows anything.

We absolutely know a little. You can guarantee the engine itself isn't fully forged and worth more than the car, and you can guarantee it has to meet European emissions.


Right there means it is not maxed out.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by why?

that's never true. Just go look at what the lunatics did to the 1.4, both in the sonic and the 124. They will always find a way to make things better and more powerful.

You mention the 1.4L, I can't find anyone getting much over 200whp with it without opening it up (both Chevy and FCA). The 1.5L 3-banger BMW engine is in a similar boat. This Toyota 3-cylinder already makes more HP/L than those other engines do tuned, it makes more HP/L than a Focus RS or Civic Type R.

Will it have a flash tune that offers >5% improvement within a year? Absolutely. Will it push 300whp reliably without significant investment? I seriously doubt it. Can you build it into a monster with enough time and money, sure but with that kind of fantasy everything is a $100k check from being faster than a hypercar.

It's 167HP/L, the Ferrari 3.9L V8 in the outgoing 488 is 169HP/L. Toyota can't break physics. It is a very short list of cars that make more power/displacement than this car with a factory warranty, even shorter if you cut out cars that are >$100k.

It's a totally safe bet that there isn't much headroom left in this engine.

[JD001]

2 screen grabs from a French video....

[why?]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You mention the 1.4L, I can't find anyone getting much over 200whp with it without opening it up (both Chevy and FCA). The 1.5L 3-banger BMW engine is in a similar boat. This Toyota 3-cylinder already makes more HP/L than those other engines do tuned, it makes more HP/L than a Focus RS or Civic Type R.

Will it have a flash tune that offers >5% improvement within a year? Absolutely. Will it push 300whp reliably without significant investment? I seriously doubt it. Can you build it into a monster with enough time and money, sure but with that kind of fantasy everything is a $100k check from being faster than a hypercar.

It's 167HP/L, the Ferrari 3.9L V8 in the outgoing 488 is 169HP/L. Toyota can't break physics. It is a very short list of cars that make more power/displacement than this car with a factory warranty, even shorter if you cut out cars that are >$100k.

It's a totally safe bet that there isn't much headroom left in this engine.

If "there wasn't much room left," it wouldn't pass emissions. That's why Europe cannot use the new engine in the new twins. The sonic comes with 138 hp. The fiat with 160. Getting 200 hp out of that is impressive. 167 hp/l means nothing after boost. f1 used to get near 1500 hp out of 1.5l turbos in the 80's. The GR4 engine will be rated at 257 hp. We'll see what it really makes. Thinking it cannot make more is just silly. You are completely underrating European emissions and how much they have to screw with the tunes on these cars to pass that crap.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by why?

If "there wasn't much room left," it wouldn't pass emissions. That's why Europe cannot use the new engine in the new twins. The sonic comes with 138 hp. The fiat with 160. Getting 200 hp out of that is impressive. 167 hp/l means nothing after boost. f1 used to get near 1500 hp out of 1.5l turbos in the 80's. The GR4 engine will be rated at 257 hp. We'll see what it really makes. Thinking it cannot make more is just silly. You are completely underrating European emissions and how much they have to screw with the tunes on these cars to pass that crap.

The new twins prove the point that Europeans emissions aren't holding back much of anything, 2.5% is nothing to write home about. The turbo cars are balancing reliability and fuel economy with their tunes, easy to crank up the boost but you can not break physics, there's only so much power to be made by burning fuel in a 1.6L combustion chamber. Those F1 engines wouldn't last 20 laps on their max power tunes and often raced at <1000hp levels and even then most blew up. Niki Lauda finished 3 races in 1985 when Mclaren claimed the constructors championship off Alain Prost's back.

Let's back up here, how much do YOU think the aftermarket can squeeze out of this engine reliably? How much headroom do you think is left?

[JD001]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The new twins prove the point that Europeans emissions aren't holding back much of anything, 2.5% is nothing to write home about. The turbo cars are balancing reliability and fuel economy with their tunes, easy to crank up the boost but you can not break physics, there's only so much power to be made by burning fuel in a 1.6L combustion chamber. Those F1 engines wouldn't last 20 laps on their max power tunes and often raced at <1000hp levels and even then most blew up. Niki Lauda finished 3 races in 1985 when Mclaren claimed the constructors championship off Alain Prost's back.

Let's back up here, how much do YOU think the aftermarket can squeeze out of this engine reliably? How much headroom do you think is left?

I haven't seen any specs for the actually rally version of the car.. The team car must be putting out more BHP...

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by JD001

I haven't seen any specs for the actually rally version of the car.. The team car must be putting out more BHP...

You can output a lot of BHP if it only has to last 1,000 miles and if you can spend five to six figures building each unit, it's not a useful comparison imho.

380+ horsepower with a restrictor plate for the record;
https://toyotagazooracing.com/wrc/cars/2020/

2019 WRC championship averaged about 200 miles per rally and allowed 3 engines for each car for the whole season of <2800 miles of racing.

Plenty of 'headroom' if you're in for 1k mile engine rebuilds I suppose.

[NemesisPrime909]

You know the thing that really pisses me off about this car is back in February Toyota's US Twitter asked the twittersphere is Americans wanted the Yaris GR4 the response was an overwhelming, "yes" but one schmuck just chimed in and said, "Nah we don't want that, we want a turbo Corolla." to which Toyota responded, "Great idea, we'll let management know!" and then a week later Motortrend posted an article that the GR Yaris would not make it to the US. and tonight Toyota's Twitter confirmed it saying that while we're not getting the GR Yaris, we can expect a something from the GR family all but confirming the Corolla which will most likely be FWD and heavier.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

You know the thing that really pisses me off about this car is back in February Toyota's US Twitter asked the twittersphere is Americans wanted the Yaris GR4 the response was an overwhelming, "yes" but one schmuck just chimed in and said, "Nah we don't want that, we want a turbo Corolla." to which Toyota responded, "Great idea, we'll let management know!" and then a week later Motortrend posted an article that the GR Yaris would not make it to the US. and tonight Toyota's Twitter confirmed it saying that while we're not getting the GR Yaris, we can expect a something from the GR family all but confirming the Corolla which will most likely be FWD and heavier.

Correlation does not imply causation.

[JD001]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You can output a lot of BHP if it only has to last 1,000 miles and if you can spend five to six figures building each unit, it's not a useful comparison imho.

380+ horsepower with a restrictor plate for the record;
https://toyotagazooracing.com/wrc/cars/2020/

2019 WRC championship averaged about 200 miles per rally and allowed 3 engines for each car for the whole season of <2800 miles of racing.

Plenty of 'headroom' if you're in for 1k mile engine rebuilds I suppose.

IMHO, I think that there will about 20 or 30bhp lurking in the engine due to emission control etc. So get the breathing right and a small tune, perhaps a slightly bigger turbo will see some gains.. I'm just really hoping that it lives up to its current spec..and fingers crossed, Toyota may build one without the rear seats and other lightweight goodies.. and sell it as a 'track-lite' road version...

When I look back at previous homologated cars such as the Cosworths, E30 M3s, Subarus, Mitsubishis, Lancias etc.. all had conservative bhp for the road versions but easily let up extra bhp through aftermarket tuning..

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by JD001

IMHO, I think that there will about 20 or 30bhp lurking in the engine due to emission control etc. So get the breathing right and a small tune, perhaps a slightly bigger turbo will see some gains.. I'm just really hoping that it lives up to its current spec..and fingers crossed, Toyota may build one without the rear seats and other lightweight goodies.. and sell it as a 'track-lite' road version...

When I look back at previous homologated cars such as the Cosworths, E30 M3s, Subarus, Mitsubishis, Lancias etc.. all had conservative bhp for the road versions but easily let up extra bhp through aftermarket tuning..

Ah the days of over engineering and not cost cutting of today.

[NemesisPrime909]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Correlation does not imply causation.

I know that. It's just the way it plays out. I'm implementing hyperbole to make it seem more funny.

I know it's not that guy's fault. It's just funny that despite all the people saying "yes" Toyota's Twitter responded to the one guy saying"no"

It's funny that for once Toyota appeared to be willing to share the "cool" version of the car and then it gets yanked away at the last minute because of a comedy of errors.

So once again while the world gets the light, 3-door, AWD, turbo purpose-built car. We will get the less exciting version.

But hey if the GR Corolla is AWD and lighter then I will come back to this post and eat my words, gladly .

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by JD001

IMHO, I think that there will about 20 or 30bhp lurking in the engine due to emission control etc.

So <10%, which is what I posted earlier which is chump change for most turbo engines classified as having 'lots of headroom' Going from 260-270 up to touching 300hp at the crank, probably about 240whp. It's fantastic for something with such low displacement, but it's not like we're getting half a 2JZ in this thing making 300WHP with just a tune.

Although in some ways it is like having half a 2JZ, getting over 200whp with 3 cylinders is dope.

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

It's funny that for once Toyota appeared to be willing to share the "cool" version of the car and then it gets yanked away at the last minute because of a comedy of errors.

So once again while the world gets the light, 3-door, AWD, turbo purpose-built car. We will get the less exciting version.

Lets be honest, a tiny $35k Yaris wouldn't sell for shit in the US. A couple thousand would get sold to die hards and the vast majority would laugh it off. A 2-door 3-cylinder up against V8 Mustangs and Camaros?

It's not a 'comedy of errors' it's 'lets not lose hundreds of thousands of dollars by trying to sell this car in a market that doesn't want it'.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Lets be honest, a tiny $35k Yaris wouldn't sell for shit in the US. A couple thousand would get sold to die hards and the vast majority would laugh it off. A 2-door 3-cylinder up against V8 Mustangs and Camaros?

It's not a 'comedy of errors' it's 'lets not lose hundreds of thousands of dollars by trying to sell this car in a market that doesn't want it'.

Took the words right out of my mouth. The Yaris GR4 would likely flop in the US. That's just the market here in the US. The vast majority of Americans (even those who supposedly want "sports cars") want muscle cars or sedans. They don't want hot hatches (RIP Speed 3, STI hatch, Fiesta ST, Focus ST/RS, dying Golf R). Hell they don't even want lightweight roadsters (RIP S2000, Sky/Solstice, dying ND Miata) or lightweight coupes (RIP RX-7, RX-8, dying Twins).

People love to blame the manufacturers for not bringing fun, lightweight cars to the US, but you can't blame them. The cars they do bring lose out in the HP wars. Even when people buy them, they don't want to pay new car prices so they buy them used.