flush with stock wheels. with Stud installation. - Page 2 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

Mr. Mcoupe · 07-21-2012, 04:12 PM

Using the nut to install the studs then take the nut off as it was used as a tool not as permanent install. Do I have it right? My Engrish is bad.

StevenEngage · 07-21-2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vividracing

Matt who posted for me above was talking about seating the new wheel stud. Not using washers to space the wheels. That would be really bad.

THANK GOD you cleared that up lol, for a while there I was thinking good god people are going to shun them instantly.

philstar · 07-21-2012, 08:06 PM

Id love to see more pics as well!

dsgerbc · 07-21-2012, 08:19 PM

Congrats on ruining your handling.

adamturbo · 07-21-2012, 08:46 PM

spacers do not ruin the handling, they make handling better by giving your car a wider track!!!. you obviously dont know anything about car set up for racing and autox

dsgerbc · 07-21-2012, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamturbo

spacers do not ruin the handling, they make handling better by giving your car a wider track!!!. you obviously dont know anything about car set up for racing and autox

"Scrub radius", google it.

FRS8SIX · 08-02-2012, 12:35 PM

by any chance do you know the length of the stock studs and the new studs?

Evil86 · 08-13-2012, 03:28 PM

How did you remove the original ones? Did you drive them out?

Draco-REX · 08-13-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

"Scrub radius", google it.

"Scrub Radius" has become an evil term to decry low offsets and spacers. The thing is, it isn't all that bad. It will make the steering heavier and kill some of the feel, but that's about it.

dsgerbc · 08-13-2012, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

"Scrub Radius" has become an evil term to decry low offsets and spacers. The thing is, it isn't all that bad. It will make the steering heavier and kill some of the feel, but that's about it.

Effects depend a lot on what the OEM scrub radius is. If you manage to change the sign of this radius (I haven't seen any actual info on the OEM radius) - the effects will be quite a bit beyond what you described.
Even if the sign stays the same - you'll get less suspension bushing compliance, with less toe-out on cornering (read - more understeer) and less stability under braking. So no, it's not just steering feel. How much - depends on #s.

Draco-REX · 08-13-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Effects depend a lot on what the OEM scrub radius is. If you manage to change the sign of this radius (I haven't seen any actual info on the OEM radius) - the effects will be quite a bit beyond what you described.
Even if the sign stays the same - you'll get less suspension bushing compliance, with less toe-out on cornering (read - more understeer) and less stability under braking. So no, it's not just steering feel. How much - depends on #s.

Changing how far out the wheel is from the hub, while keeping the hub in its original location will not change any of the angles. A 1 degree change of toe at +48 offset is still 1 degree of change at +33 offset.

Changing scrub radius by changing the length of the control arms can cause issues. That happens whenever you mess with suspension geometry. But just pushing the wheels out won't change the geometry.

Now what will happen is increased off-enter forces on the bearings. Pushing the tire centers out by 15mm may increase bearing wear.

dsgerbc · 08-13-2012, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Changing how far out the wheel is from the hub, while keeping the hub in its original location will not change any of the angles. A 1 degree change of toe at +48 offset is still 1 degree of change at +33 offset.

You're talking static, I'm talking about dynamic.
Under heavy cornering suspension bushings compress. From what I've read about BRZ/FRS suspension, it is designed properly, and bushing compliance gives you toe-out up front when you corner.

That compliance depends on the moment of the tire friction force around the (vertical) rotational axis of the strut. Given equal frictional force of the tire, that moment will be affected by the force couple, which will change more or less in line with scrub radius.
So if you change the scrub radius, you also change the friction force moment, ergo you change the amount (or, in extreme cases, the direction) the suspension bushings dynamically compress under cornering, hence less toe-out.

And again - this is all about dynamic alignment, not static angles.

Draco-REX · 08-13-2012, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

You're talking static, I'm talking about dynamic.
Under heavy cornering suspension bushings compress. From what I've read about BRZ/FRS suspension, it is designed properly, and bushing compliance gives you toe-out up front when you corner.

That compliance depends on the moment of the tire friction force around the (vertical) rotational axis of the strut. Given equal frictional force of the tire, that moment will be affected by the force couple, which will change more or less in line with scrub radius.
So if you change the scrub radius, you also change the friction force moment, ergo you change the amount (or, in extreme cases, the direction) the suspension bushings dynamically compress under cornering, hence less toe-out.

And again - this is all about dynamic alignment, not static angles.

Ok, I see what you're getting at. But I think the actual difference in this case is going to be so small that it won't matter. Given time I could come up with the numbers, but I think we're looking at less than a degree difference of the thrust forces against the bushings.

subatoy · 08-13-2012, 08:48 PM

can you take some good pictures?

07-21-2012, 04:12 PM	#15
Mr. Mcoupe Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Drives: ExigeS,M3,S2k,MCpe,MR2T,T4R,Sienna Location: The Woodlands, TX Posts: 207 Thanks: 0 Thanked 152 Times in 66 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Using the nut to install the studs then take the nut off as it was used as a tool not as permanent install. Do I have it right? My Engrish is bad. __________________ Current: 19 GT-R[]17 M2[]17 WRX[]14 T4R[]12 NV2500[]07 Exige S[]07 S2k[]05 M3[]03 M3[]02 MCoupe[]94 MR2T[]93 MR2 T[]92 MR2 T[]91 MR2 T[]95 SC400[] Gone but not forgotten: 04 STI[]05 MR2 Spyder[]04 S2k[]03 IS300[]90 MR2[]

07-21-2012, 08:06 PM	#17
philstar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: Argento FR-S Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 436 Thanks: 59 Thanked 349 Times in 144 Posts Mentioned: 8 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Id love to see more pics as well! __________________

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07-21-2012, 08:19 PM	#18
dsgerbc Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Drives: BRZ(sold), STI Location: A2, MI Posts: 1,915 Thanks: 176 Thanked 419 Times in 241 Posts Mentioned: 11 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Congrats on ruining your handling.

07-21-2012, 08:46 PM	#19
adamturbo Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Drives: mitsubishi evo 9 Location: vancouver Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	spacers do not ruin the handling, they make handling better by giving your car a wider track!!!. you obviously dont know anything about car set up for racing and autox

08-02-2012, 12:35 PM	#21
FRS8SIX Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Drives: 2013 hot lava FR-S Location: Alhambra Posts: 155 Thanks: 141 Thanked 290 Times in 56 Posts Mentioned: 7 Post(s) Tagged: 1 Thread(s)	by any chance do you know the length of the stock studs and the new studs?

08-13-2012, 03:28 PM	#22
Evil86 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Drives: Monkey-butt red FR-S Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 795 Thanks: 26 Thanked 184 Times in 148 Posts Mentioned: 7 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	How did you remove the original ones? Did you drive them out?

08-13-2012, 08:48 PM	#28
subatoy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Drives: subatoy Location: Atlanta Posts: 667 Thanks: 32 Thanked 198 Times in 106 Posts Mentioned: 5 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	can you take some good pictures?

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