Why would more power ruin the car??

[86MLR]

Drinking and posting can have unforseen problems as well.......

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by xdavidx

So here is my take on this original question:


Having come from much more powerful cars like the bmw M2 and a porsche boxster s, I enjoy driving my 86 significantly more than either.


The reason I enjoy it is not because it's a better car, a faster car, a better handling car, a more comfortable car, or any of the normal reasons. It is because it is a more engaging car.


With lots of power, you can just mash the gas and go fast. Anyone can do it out of the box. Fun? sure. With the 86/brz you have to truly master the car to drive it really fast. That's the fun of this car, the challenge and engagement of chasing mastery. If you shift too soon, oops... torque dip, if you break too soon, oops you can't get back up to speed coming out of the corner, if you don't heel toe just right, oops you're in the torque dip. This I believe is why the torque dip is there and why they don't shy away and pretend it's not or change it in a revamp. It was always meant to be there to give us a challenge. You have to get the mix just right and doing so requires you to really focus, practice, and work for it. This car is like a video game where you have to keep replaying until you get it perfect to win the level, everything designed for a reason to make it engaging and challenging. This is the fun of the car and to add more power, to make the car just fast no matter what, it ruins that.

I don`t agree that the torque dip exists to teach you how to drive(race) better. I see that more as an indirect result of it`s actual purpose, which I only speculate has to do more with day to day driving.

More power won`t ruin the car; the community more power would bring would ruin the car.

[Sasquachulator]

The car was made to work with each part of itself in perfect harmony.
You add more power, you upset part of the balance.

In order to retain that balance, other parts would need to be modified in order to accommodate any change. Its easy to just say "throw another 50hp with a turbo" on it and be done with it and most people would instantly be gratified or fulfilled, but then the car will be unbalanced towards the power part of the spectrum. Of course I highly doubt anyone but the most skilled drivers would really feel the car perform differently (better/worse/etc) but that's how it is. Its the difference between having a Toyota 86 with 250hp, or having a 250hp Toyota 86.

Its why the car was designed as 200hp low HP sports car to begin with. That was the criteria set out.

If they wanted to do they'd could have set the targets higher. Might be the same method used to design the Supra/Z4. It was stated they set the targets at the beginning (engines, chassis, components) then BMW and Toyota split ways after that was set and tuned the car their own way.

[xdavidx]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I don`t agree that the torque dip exists to teach you how to drive(race) better. I see that more as an indirect result of it`s actual purpose, which I only speculate has to do more with day to day driving.

More power won`t ruin the car; the community more power would bring would ruin the car.

It is not to teach you to drive better.


The Neo 'Whoa' meme gets it.



What I'm saying wolf, is that when you are ready you won't have a torque dip.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I don`t agree that the torque dip exists to teach you how to drive(race) better. I see that more as an indirect result of it`s actual purpose, which I only speculate has to do more with day to day driving.

More power won`t ruin the car; the community more power would bring would ruin the car.

It is for the practical application of meeting emission and mileage requirements. It isn't because the engineers could not get rid of it, to train people to drive, because they ran out of time, or any of the other weird and wonderful theories that get thrown around. It really is as simple as them complying with the rules.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

Upgrade everything.

You can never have enough power, having to little traction, well you can work on that.

Hell, I've watched a 700hp 86 do laps around Eastern Creek, so, there's a starting point for your power goals.

Originally Posted by 86MLR

You can never have to much power, too little traction can be a issue, insufficient brakes to, poor choice of suspension, ditto, crap tyres, yeap, BUT, with good engineering practices these things can be dialed out.

But then there is the elephant in the room, drivers skill, which again, can, nay, may be fixed.

I've never meet a racecar with to much power.

I have met alot of people lacking the talent to control a high powered car though.

One of those guys looks at me when I'm shaving.

Yeah, he is a ****.....

Originally Posted by 86MLR

Drinking and posting can have unforseen problems as well.......

LOLOLOLOLOLOL I was going to ask if you wrote those drunk and then went to the next page and...

[NARFALICIOUS]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

The car was made to work with each part of itself in perfect harmony.
You add more power, you upset part of the balance.

In order to retain that balance, other parts would need to be modified in order to accommodate any change. Its easy to just say "throw another 50hp with a turbo" on it and be done with it and most people would instantly be gratified or fulfilled, but then the car will be unbalanced towards the power part of the spectrum. Of course I highly doubt anyone but the most skilled drivers would really feel the car perform differently (better/worse/etc) but that's how it is. Its the difference between having a Toyota 86 with 250hp, or having a 250hp Toyota 86.

Its why the car was designed as 200hp low HP sports car to begin with. That was the criteria set out.

If they wanted to do they'd could have set the targets higher. Might be the same method used to design the Supra/Z4. It was stated they set the targets at the beginning (engines, chassis, components) then BMW and Toyota split ways after that was set and tuned the car their own way.

tired of hearing this balance thing.

Please tell me what makes a 250HP in this vehicle unbalanced.

Maybe if you had 700hp turbo +supercharger up front, oil cooler, trans cooler, cooler cooler?, gutted rear, nose heavy, extra wide 18x10s, sure....but 250 aint that much.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

tired of hearing this balance thing.

Please tell me what makes a 250HP in this vehicle unbalanced.

Maybe if you had 700hp turbo +supercharger up front, oil cooler, trans cooler, cooler cooler?, gutted rear, nose heavy, extra wide 18x10s, sure....but 250 aint that much.

Well the fact that it wasn't designed to have 250 hp from the factory should be enough to consider that unbalanced.

[NARFALICIOUS]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

Well the fact that it wasn't designed to have 250 hp from the factory should be enough to consider that unbalanced.

In your previous post you said more power wouldn't ruin the car.

And Believe me when i hear you about "factory" etc and how it was not originally intended to have 250HP... i'm not asking about reliability or warranty or any of those things.

The majority of users, i'd guess 95%, drive this car to work and around town. What does it mean to be unbalanced that everyone keeps talking about? does 10HP do it? 30HP? 50HP?

Of the small percentage of people who race the car professionally, amateur, track, autocross, drift... I'm guessing at least half of them have at least one power type mod.
Would a 230 BHP 86 not be balanced?

What makes 200 the magic number when the 17s have 205 with not much other changes to the chassis.

[Th3rdSun]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

In your previous post you said more power wouldn't ruin the car.

And Believe me when i hear you about "factory" etc and how it was not originally intended to have 250HP... i'm not asking about reliability or warranty or any of those things.

The majority of users, i'd guess 95%, drive this car to work and around town. What does it mean to be unbalanced that everyone keeps talking about? does 10HP do it? 30HP? 50HP?

Of the small percentage of people who race the car professionally, amateur, track, autocross, drift... I'm guessing at least half of them have at least one power type mod.
Would a 230 BHP 86 not be balanced?

What makes 200 the magic number when the 17s have 205 with not much other changes to the chassis.

You pretty much summed up my feelings on this issue,perfectly.

I wish some of the people that have the car boosted would chime in with detailed first hand descriptions of how the balance differs,or maybe I missed those posts.

I've always felt like 225 hp to the wheels without any,or minimally added weight would be perfect,but it would have to have no narrower than 225 wheels.These shitty 210s wouldn't cut it would any more power.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

tired of hearing this balance thing.

Please tell me what makes a 250HP in this vehicle unbalanced.

Maybe if you had 700hp turbo +supercharger up front, oil cooler, trans cooler, cooler cooler?, gutted rear, nose heavy, extra wide 18x10s, sure....but 250 aint that much.

I hate the whole balance talk as much as you, but the criteria was set at 200hp and that's what they tuned the car for.

In that sense its 100% balanced. lets say a perfect circle.

Throw in an extra 50hp and then you'll have something like 105% power, 95% handling, 102% steering feel, whatever. Now that circle becomes an ellipse.....as small a change as it may be. Unbalanced.

SOMEONE will notice those differences, and im guessing Tada is quite anal about (he IS the guy who tuned the thing) it so he notices it. Even if like 95% of the population doesn't.

Perhaps the car was actually designed as this 100% baseline balance before someone mods the hell out of it to their liking. Because its universally known to excel in all the things that makes it fun right out of the box. power was the most controversial part but it seemed like most people acknowledge it being ENOUGH power.

Newbies can drive it and feel like a champ, they wouldn't need more. Experienced drivers could drive it and feel like champs, but then they'd want more because they know they can handle more. Experts can drive it and feel like champs but they'd need more and they can handle more.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by NARFALICIOUS

In your previous post you said more power wouldn't ruin the car.

And Believe me when i hear you about "factory" etc and how it was not originally intended to have 250HP... i'm not asking about reliability or warranty or any of those things.

The majority of users, i'd guess 95%, drive this car to work and around town. What does it mean to be unbalanced that everyone keeps talking about? does 10HP do it? 30HP? 50HP?

Of the small percentage of people who race the car professionally, amateur, track, autocross, drift... I'm guessing at least half of them have at least one power type mod.
Would a 230 BHP 86 not be balanced?

What makes 200 the magic number when the 17s have 205 with not much other changes to the chassis.

I'm not equating ruin to unbalance here.

The argument is a little vague as I think all things need to be considered when adding power, not excluded. Effects on handling/reliability/efficiency/etc should be included in the argument of balance.

[xdavidx]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I'm not equating ruin to unbalance here.

The argument is a little vague as I think all things need to be considered when adding power, not excluded. Effects on handling/reliability/efficiency/etc should be included in the argument of balance.

No two people will ever agree on what is 'balanced' for a car. Kind of pointless for people to argue about it, since it's all relative. There is no right or wrong, only zuul.

[DandoX]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

More power won`t ruin the car; the community more power would bring would ruin the car.

Can you please explain this sentence?