No Stupid Questions Thread

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Rampage

SCION was the result of the Toyota Genesis Project which produced the Echo, Celica and MR2 Spyder (MR-S). The idea was to introduce young drivers to exciting Toyota models and then as they grew older they would stay Toyota buyers as they transitioned into family cars, vans, trucks and SUVs. Creating Scion as its own brand was the next step with the same end goal.

The problem was, the brand never drew the younger generation in the numbers that were envisioned. In fact, some marketing studies showed that the Scion brand attracted a much older demographic than was expected, especially in sales of models like the B Box.

As evidenced by the changing of the badges that is so common on this forum, when people buy a Toyota they would just rather it say "Toyota". That is unless they can afford a Lexus. Then they want their Toyota to say "Lexus".

I can not speak to Scion USA but a major part of the failure of Scion Canada was marketing. When you base your whole marketing concept around online viral videos and then don't make any videos quirky/funny/different enough to actually go viral you are pretty much doomed. There weren't enough on the road here to create word of mouth interest and the Scion sections of dealerships were usually one car tucked back in the corner of a showroom and some pamphlets. I have little doubt that they could have sold more but almost nobody up here ever even heard of the brand. The first question out of about 70% of the people I talk to about the car is "What is a Scion". It is usually pronounced 'ski on' since they have never heard the word spoken before. All in all they had the most abysmal marketing I have ever seen for a product up here. Toilet paper ads go into more detail on the benefits of their product than Scion ever did.

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

what's a short block and what's a long block?

I might be able to help out more than google since our cars are a bit confusing, (the H4 layout slightly complicates it!)

When you think of a typical inline or V motor, the 'bottom end' is generally the crank/bearing/rods/piston assembly. A short block is basically a bottom end in an engine case, (no heads, no valve train, no oil pan/timing stuff).

A Subaru shortblock is generally considered the crank/bearings/rods/pistons in case halves. If you look at it from the top, all the accessories, intake manifold, heads etc are missing, if you look at it from the front, there's no timing components yet since the heads aren't there, and from the bottom you're missing the oil pan, pickup, if it's a boosted EJ you're potentially missing the oil cooler, etc.

A Subaru longblock can vary a bit, but it adds finished/completed heads, and usually the necessary accessories to complete the engine. This includes stuff like intake manifold, oil pump, timing assembly and covers, (usually,) and usually includes the oil pickup and pan. It does not include things that are normally bolted to the motor but are not part of it, which are things like the alternator, A/C, Power steering pump, etc.

If you pull a motor out of a car, it's usually just a few accessories, lines, and maybe an engine harness away from being a 'long block'. Removing the heads and majority of the accessories makes it a 'short block'. Bottom end is generally considered the pistons down to the crank, even though it's in the middle because the terminology doesn't carry over cleanly from an inline/V it can be a bit confusing.

Every manufacture will be a little different in how these are broken up so it's important to look at a bill of material with these short/long blocks. Some companies sell short blocks with a full oiling solution ready to go already installed, other companies sell long blocks with the heads bolted on but no timing situation. Others will sell a long block that just needs your alternator, PS pump, AC compressor, and engine harness before you can bolt it in. There's very little 1:1 in this world, but you can get really close.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

I might be able to help out more than google since our cars are a bit confusing, (the H4 layout slightly complicates it!)

When you think of a typical inline or V motor, the 'bottom end' is generally the crank/bearing/rods/piston assembly. A short block is basically a bottom end in an engine case, (no heads, no valve train, no oil pan/timing stuff).

A Subaru shortblock is generally considered the crank/bearings/rods/pistons in case halves. If you look at it from the top, all the accessories, intake manifold, heads etc are missing, if you look at it from the front, there's no timing components yet since the heads aren't there, and from the bottom you're missing the oil pan, pickup, if it's a boosted EJ you're potentially missing the oil cooler, etc.

A Subaru longblock can vary a bit, but it adds finished/completed heads, and usually the necessary accessories to complete the engine. This includes stuff like intake manifold, oil pump, timing assembly and covers, (usually,) and usually includes the oil pickup and pan. It does not include things that are normally bolted to the motor but are not part of it, which are things like the alternator, A/C, Power steering pump, etc.

If you pull a motor out of a car, it's usually just a few accessories, lines, and maybe an engine harness away from being a 'long block'. Removing the heads and majority of the accessories makes it a 'short block'. Bottom end is generally considered the pistons down to the crank, even though it's in the middle because the terminology doesn't carry over cleanly from an inline/V it can be a bit confusing.

Every manufacture will be a little different in how these are broken up so it's important to look at a bill of material with these short/long blocks. Some companies sell short blocks with a full oiling solution ready to go already installed, other companies sell long blocks with the heads bolted on but no timing situation. Others will sell a long block that just needs your alternator, PS pump, AC compressor, and engine harness before you can bolt it in. There's very little 1:1 in this world, but you can get really close.

[JazzleSAURUS]

I'd like to add, a lot of communities rally around a definition.

A few friends are big LS guys, and they use the headgasket as the metric for top/bottom end. To them, there's 'engine components'. Accessories, oiling, timing, DO NOT COUNT. Above the headgasket is topend, below the headgasket is bottom end. It's a very clear way to do it, and would make it easier to market/talk about these components.

I.e. shortblock = just that, rotating assembly in case halves. long block is a short block plus heads bolted on, then you could market things like a 'longblock + timing + oiling' which could be a full long block, full timing kit, oil pump, pan, pickup, and needed baffling, etc.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

I'd like to add, a lot of communities rally around a definition.

A few friends are big LS guys, and they use the headgasket as the metric for top/bottom end. To them, there's 'engine components'. Accessories, oiling, timing, DO NOT COUNT. Above the headgasket is topend, below the headgasket is bottom end. It's a very clear way to do it, and would make it easier to market/talk about these components.

I.e. shortblock = just that, rotating assembly in case halves. long block is a short block plus heads bolted on, then you could market things like a 'longblock + timing + oiling' which could be a full long block, full timing kit, oil pump, pan, pickup, and needed baffling, etc.

Thanks for your replies. Clears things up a bit. Reason I was asking is when I go FI and happen to blow the engine, I'd rather get a built short block that some companies are offering, so I was wondering what else I'd need apart from said short block. But I guess I'd be able to carry the top over from the blown engine to the new one. But let's hope I don't blow the engine lol. Good to be prepared though

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Thanks for your replies. Clears things up a bit. Reason I was asking is when I go FI and happen to blow the engine, I'd rather get a built short block that some companies are offering, so I was wondering what else I'd need apart from said short block. But I guess I'd be able to carry the top over from the blown engine to the new one. But let's hope I don't blow the engine lol. Good to be prepared though

All depends on what you blow. Could be a short or long block depend on where things end up.

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Thanks for your replies. Clears things up a bit. Reason I was asking is when I go FI and happen to blow the engine, I'd rather get a built short block that some companies are offering, so I was wondering what else I'd need apart from said short block. But I guess I'd be able to carry the top over from the blown engine to the new one. But let's hope I don't blow the engine lol. Good to be prepared though

This really depends on what lets go.

If we talk about 'typical Subaru failure' it's either a spun bearing, or a crack in one of the piston ringlands. Note: The FA20 is a bit different, so in an effort to be complete, I'll cover a cracked piston/ringland, a spun bearing, and a windowed block. The three most common failures the last decade or so of Subaru motor failures that are common.

A cracked piston is wonderful as far as catastrophic failures go, assuming it didn't clobber the cylinder wall too. Pull the short block, remove heads and send for machining and valve job, (trust me...) Either grab an OTS short block, or remove pistons, hone, install drop in pistons, reassemble and reinstall.

A spun bearing s.u.c.k.s. Disassemble everything that touches oil. Period. I see a lot of people saying to just parts washer the pan and pickup, and do your best spraying out the heads. I see an equal amount of people asking why their rebuilt motor spun a bearing again.

This includes your turbo, oil cooler, both entire head assemblies, oiling system, and your short block. Everything needs to get AT LEAST hot tanked, and the crank/journals need to be machined, and bearings replaced. I currently have an 05 Legacy GT customer car taking up a spot in the garage because the customer is having difficulty reconciling the reality of the rebuild. "Can't I just replace the pickup and oil pump, and hope all is well?" Neigh. Rebuild, hombre.

If you window a block, which appears to be a pretty common failure with a boosted FA20, odds are fairly high your bearings didn't do too much more rotating/failing after the block cracked, since a rod is often jammed and stopped the rotation, this is, oddly, a good thing in my mind. It means there's a much slimmer chance of 'glitter of doom' deposits sneakily hiding out to grenade your fancy new motor.

My recommendation for these failures is to have the heads disassembled, machined, and hot tanked, and replace the failed stock short block with a built fresh short block. OTS blocks like the IAG and MAPerformance blocks are a decent value, but a few builders on the forum seem to do nicer builds for comparable money. Resell any usable components from the original build as 'once failed' components for a song, and start fresh. (Pistons make cool ash trays, block halves, (especially windowed,) make cool coffee tables.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

This really depends on what lets go.

If we talk about 'typical Subaru failure' it's either a spun bearing, or a crack in one of the piston ringlands. Note: The FA20 is a bit different, so in an effort to be complete, I'll cover a cracked piston/ringland, a spun bearing, and a windowed block. The three most common failures the last decade or so of Subaru motor failures that are common.

A cracked piston is wonderful as far as catastrophic failures go, assuming it didn't clobber the cylinder wall too. Pull the short block, remove heads and send for machining and valve job, (trust me...) Either grab an OTS short block, or remove pistons, hone, install drop in pistons, reassemble and reinstall.

A spun bearing s.u.c.k.s. Disassemble everything that touches oil. Period. I see a lot of people saying to just parts washer the pan and pickup, and do your best spraying out the heads. I see an equal amount of people asking why their rebuilt motor spun a bearing again.

This includes your turbo, oil cooler, both entire head assemblies, oiling system, and your short block. Everything needs to get AT LEAST hot tanked, and the crank/journals need to be machined, and bearings replaced. I currently have an 05 Legacy GT customer car taking up a spot in the garage because the customer is having difficulty reconciling the reality of the rebuild. "Can't I just replace the pickup and oil pump, and hope all is well?" Neigh. Rebuild, hombre.

If you window a block, which appears to be a pretty common failure with a boosted FA20, odds are fairly high your bearings didn't do too much more rotating/failing after the block cracked, since a rod is often jammed and stopped the rotation, this is, oddly, a good thing in my mind. It means there's a much slimmer chance of 'glitter of doom' deposits sneakily hiding out to grenade your fancy new motor.

My recommendation for these failures is to have the heads disassembled, machined, and hot tanked, and replace the failed stock short block with a built fresh short block. OTS blocks like the IAG and MAPerformance blocks are a decent value, but a few builders on the forum seem to do nicer builds for comparable money. Resell any usable components from the original build as 'once failed' components for a song, and start fresh. (Pistons make cool ash trays, block halves, (especially windowed,) make cool coffee tables.

Thank you! What a detailed post, this is awesome. I actually emailed it to myself for future reference!

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Thank you! What a detailed post, this is awesome. I actually emailed it to myself for future reference!

I'm glad I can assist! I've been tinkering with these cars since high school and I've learned a lot. A lot of my learnings have been through my friends poor decisions, and my sometimes overpriced decisions. Cheaping out while repairing these cars is a REALLY good way to spend that money again...and by again I mean a second time, but the next time buying the nicer part. Whoops.

Glad I can help.

Edit: 'These cars' - Subarus. Twins are Subarus no matter what Toyota fanboi's say. (Old School Toyota enthusiast here...)