FA20 Engine Expert Needed in Central NJ - Payment for Your Expertise

[gtengr]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Cross:

- "can doing 3 laps on a race track cause this lack of lubrication issue"
- Yes
- "Did this car have oil cooling"
- No
- "Is it reasonable to expect oil temps to get dangerously high in 3 laps?"
- Yes
- "Is it reasonable for bearing damage to occur as a result of these elevated oil temps from racing the engine on a race track?"
- Yes

Can't forget that Toyota will also have the opportunity to defend.

This is the most important part. If the car being at the road course is part of the case then forget it imo. Play with your money at a casino instead. If it's not part of the case, it will be really hard for them to prove anything if you have oil change receipts and given it's internal damage with less than 30k miles.

[gtengr]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Like the OP ~230 F oil temperature will be a semi-regular occurrence (I can hit that on a ~60s autox run in the summer) but >250 is likely a rarity, oil cooler is likely not on the table due to rulesets, costs, or beliefs that modern quality oil will survive <300F peak temperatures. 0W-20 is desired as in all reality the car is DD 90-95% of it's life.

The problem with high oil temps is that it decreases oil pressure, which means less bearing protection at high rpm. The oil may be able to take the heat, but it has a negative impact on oiling when it's needed the most.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Mike,

Something about the image/graph doesn't seem right. Are the "pan" temps in F or C? I've never seen oil operating temp at idle at 135F.

The idle temps should be at about coolant temps for a street car, but in a race car without a thermostat and the fan running, those numbers can be fully accurate.

[Grady]

One other thing is that you bought used. Have you used that dealer for any maint prior to this issue? The dealer just sees you as someone trying to get somthing for free so they are going by Toyotas guidelines. If you had purchased it new from that dealer and used them for maintenance they would probably go to bat for you to keep you happy.

[Grady]

Realy your best bet is to get the Dealer on your side. Hope you have not mentioned the “L” word to them. If you have then you are done! I have stick instructions to stop all negotiations once that is brought up. It may be to late but there is a possible way they can word the failure to get it covered.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by gtengr

The problem with high oil temps is that it decreases oil pressure, which means less bearing protection at high rpm. The oil may be able to take the heat, but it has a negative impact on oiling when it's needed the most.

Engine oiling is a rather complicated hydraulic system, if things were as simple as you describe a thicker weight oil would solve this 'problem' and it would have been specified from the get go. After all as Mike rightly points out this can easily occur in everyday driving, you don't need to be on track to maintain 6k rpm for a few minutes, shift to third or fourth on the freeway and you've got a long pull up a hill or passing some semi trucks, boom, 230+ F oil temps according to the ecu.

While thicker oils keep pressures (and assumedly protection) up under high load conditions, they maintain the same elevated temperatures (on the FA20 at least) which puts you back to the original problem.

I believe (because myself and 99.99% of consumers don't have the resources to test it verify how the engine was designed and Subaru isn't going to publish their design files, so we have no other choice) that Subaru and Toyota in fact tested and operated the FA20 under these reasonable conditions and determined that this was acceptable before putting it on the market. They know how to add an oil cooler, they know how to spec thicker oil, they know how to change the oil passages to reduce pressure drop and increase heat transfer to the coolant, but they kept it as is even after 5 years of production.

I'm not saying "everyone take your oil cooler off!" Hell I'll probably get one if I begin tracking regularly or add FI down the road. My hypothesis right now is that brief sustained temperatures of 230+ are a design implication that Subaru and Toyota are ok with and that the 250-270 F peaks are not cause for panic. Many many track miles have happened on these cars, they don't all blow up on lap three, and I'd wager most have not had any oiling problems.

I've put multiple amateur track days and autocrosses on my oil, changed at 7.5k miles, no oil cooler, no evidence of abnormal wear. I will be continuing with 0W-20 and no oil cooler for the foreseeable future. I'm not a hardcore track driver, I won't be setting records in my car, I won't be hitting the track 12x a year, I'm just a dude who wants to be a better driver.

And if my engine lunches itself you'll all get to hear about it.

[jamison884]

Just to answer some follow-up questions.

I had an ECU flash as part of the emissions warranty for the idle RPM dips issue and had them change my transmission and differential oils. I know they could be very good actors, but the dealership was on my side from the beginning from all impressions I received. Once the Toyota corporate engineer made their decision, the dealership said they had no recourse; they stated they wanted to do the work, but needed approval to replace the engine with used/new etc.

Regardless of the scenario, any car that dies three laps in is poorly designed. I know it's used and I don't know how it was treated. I had about 8 hours of combined time on that road course in a 2014 BMW 335i and that car never showed one hint of an issue, and I drove the shit out of that car melting the tires while maintaining traction. I also know Toyota isn't a BMW, so perhaps Toyota should stop dabbling in sports cars.

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

They do by now.
In fact at this point they know every single aspect of his case and can be prepared to counter it.
Hooray internet!

[chaoskaze]

Originally Posted by jamison884

Just to answer some follow-up questions.

I had an ECU flash as part of the emissions warranty for the idle RPM dips issue and had them change my transmission and differential oils. I know they could be very good actors, but the dealership was on my side from the beginning from all impressions I received. Once the Toyota corporate engineer made their decision, the dealership said they had no recourse; they stated they wanted to do the work, but needed approval to replace the engine with used/new etc.

Regardless of the scenario, any car that dies three laps in is poorly designed. I know it's used and I don't know how it was treated. I had about 8 hours of combined time on that road course in a 2014 BMW 335i and that car never showed one hint of an issue, and I drove the shit out of that car melting the tires while maintaining traction. I also know Toyota isn't a BMW, so perhaps Toyota should stop dabbling in sports cars.

I know you are frustrated but I'm pretty sure the chance of you getting a BMW 335i that was modified before is very low...they are out there but chance of you getting one is very low, a friend of mine had his 2012 335i bumping out like 550hp that he revert to stock & got rid of when he started to notice shit is about to go down. Good luck to whoever that's getting his 335i after him.


To me it sounds like your car have prior issue before you brought it, could be one of those one that was boosted then return to stock... or simply a lemon *which is very very rare. You should know the nature/risk of getting this car used cause how cheap it is to mod them.

Cuz there is almost no way under stock condition twins is gonna fall apart after just "three laps", especially stock. On the contrary, everyone I know/read about online. If their car had a problem is usually because there were unknown prior accident or it was boosted before.

Especially since you said the oil level was fine....













but this is also where US manual of the car fails... Use 5-30 or 5-40 for track like the Japanese manual stated.

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I should start another thread and not derail this one further but whatever, no catch all thread exists, lets keep the info scattered


I think I fall into the category of most enthusiasts who beat up on their DD, a few track days per year and/or consistent autox use or quicker than average backroads cruising. Like the OP ~230 F oil temperature will be a semi-regular occurrence (I can hit that on a ~60s autox run in the summer) but >250 is likely a rarity, oil cooler is likely not on the table due to rulesets, costs, or beliefs that modern quality oil will survive <300F peak temperatures. 0W-20 is desired as in all reality the car is DD 90-95% of it's life.

The thought process was that my usage is probably well within what a reasonably reputable oil can handle, Mobil 1, Castrol, Pennzoil, Idemitsu, and I could save a few bucks off of buying the more niche and boutique brands such as Motul, Eneos, Amsoil, RL, Liquimoly, etc. (added bonus it makes grabbing that emergency extra quart for a top off less stressful)

Was thinking Mobil 1 but Amazon doesn't offer the long-life version at a reasonable price anymore, only the 'eco' version which I'm assuming isn't best for my use case. Would have to rely on walking into O'Reilly and ordering or hoping they have EP, Super Synthetic, or their 'regular' 'annual service' oil on the shelf.

But apparently an old buddy's shop is a Motul dealer so maybe I'll go through him for 8100 or 300V 0W-20 even if it's no cheaper than the $50+ on Eneos I was spending.

See if an oil cooler is allowed. I think your best course of action is a locally available good-botique quality oil with an OEM DIT oil cooler IF POSSIBLE, I know you said it likely wasn't.

My local autox guys are cool about mods they know are for reliability. I'm not nationally competitive, I just like to do well and become a better driver, (but a pint glass now and again is cool...) So they have no issues with running a non-OEM camber bolt as long as you have a printout of your alignment showing it wasn't past what the OE crash bolts provide, or an OEM oil cooler to save your motor, that sort of thing. Many regions are NOT cool about it, whether you're competitive or not.

I've had no issues running Indemsu or Eneos 0-20 from the dealer or Napa down the road, both in autox and hard/spirited DD. We have a mountain pass that is switchbacks for about 4 miles, and I thoroughly enjoy that road at about 9/10's. About halfway through I usually pull over and let it cool just a bit until I get the cooler. I notice the pressure dropping a couple PSI. That's much more than I've ever noticed while autoxing, even on hot days, (which is basically nothing.) The break between runs and breaks between classes are enough to keep it cool in my world, I do want to add the DIT cooler so I have no concerns.

[gtengr]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

While thicker oils keep pressures (and assumedly protection) up under high load conditions, they maintain the same elevated temperatures (on the FA20 at least) which puts you back to the original problem.

Not necessarily true because the thicker oil should have higher viscosity at the same elevated temperature, resulting in a thicker oil film on the bearings.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

My hypothesis right now is that brief sustained temperatures of 230+ are a design implication that Subaru and Toyota are ok with and that the 250-270 F peaks are not cause for panic.

The design implication would be for street driving though, where I agree because you can't legally/reasonably sustain high rpms on the street like on a road course.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I've put multiple amateur track days and autocrosses on my oil, changed at 7.5k miles, no oil cooler, no evidence of abnormal wear.

You would have to inspect your bearings to see evidence of abnormal wear.

My point is really just that the bearing film thickness is being reduced, and that is eating into a safety margin than can be exacerbated by sustained aggressive driving, track days in +100F ambient temps, factory clearance tolerances, etc.

[Grady]

Ok so I can for a fact state that the oil temp on these go up rapidly. A week ago did not realy think about it but when headed to Austin for my daugheter house warming I jumped on to the toll around Austin. It was early morning and thought speed limit 80 I can go 95. Then I found out the cruz control does not set above 90. With the 2017 gearing my RPM is just over 4K at 90. Was at 90+ for 30 min or so and notice oil temp a little above half way between 190 and 270, 240 or so. So last night I jumped on to the 635 express lanes in Dallas set cruz control to 90 again and looked down, oil temp instantly went to the same temp. My thought, I would not track one of these cars without thicker oil or oil cooler!