Very loose rear end (Handling)

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The clip was specific to the Si.
See if you can find it on this list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen


Should I go pull all those other car manuals for you?


You wanted a link to a car with a torsen that said running the spare could damage it. I gave you a link to a car with a torsen differential with a statement that the spare could damage it. You naturally wish to disbelieve it even though it is in black and white.

I'm not sure you have. The original link you gave was to an owner's manual referring to an LSD in an Si, which I assumed was perhaps from the Civic Si. Your new link confirms, as much as Wikipedia can, that Honda fitted a Torsen unit to its S2000 (in that case it was the same unit Mazda fitted to its MX5 (Miata) at the time).

If I understand your new argument, a BRZ should not have its space saver spare fitted to a drive axle because a different Japanese car maker uses lawyers who are more nervous about liability, so nervous they aren't even sure if damage will occur or may occur.

This car is fwd and Honda is apparently too cheap to supply a spare of the correct size. For the 2000 Honda also faced the problem of staggered tire sizes.

There is physically no mechanism by which a Torsen can be damaged by fitting tires of different rolling circumference to the two output shafts. If you would care to explain how it could, or find someone with the appropriate engineering knowledge to explain how it could I invite you to do so.

You have ignored also the conundrum your opinion presents to anyone with an awd Subaru, to pick a brand at random.

Torsen are not wheel speed sensitive. That's not how they work.

[Cole]

I think I have cancer now

[nextcar]

Originally Posted by Cole

I think I have cancer now

Where have all the herpes laden Latinas gone when you really need them?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gforce

I'm not sure you have. The link is to an owner's manual referring to an LSD.

If I understand your new argument, a BRZ should not have its space saver spare fitted to a drive axle because a different Japanese car maker uses lawyers who are more nervous about liability, so nervous they aren't ever need sure if damage will occur or may occur.

This car is fwd and Honda is apparently too cheap to supply a spare of the correct size.

There is physically no mechanism by which a Torsen can be damaged by fitting tires of different filing circumference to the two output shafts. If you would care to explain how it could, or find someone with the appropriate engineering knowledge to explain how it could I invite you to do so.

You have ignored also the conundrum your opinion presents to anyone with an awd Subaru, to pick a brand at random.

Torsen are not wheel speed sensitive. That's not how they work.

Knew it! You ask for a car I give you one. You claim it isn't the right thing I prove it is. You say well what does that have to do with these cars.
The Si LSD is a torsen.


How about you prove it CAN'T be harmed contrary to what the owners manuals written by the manufacturer of vehicles using the torsen LSD says.


There is no conundrum for AWD drivers they just have to follow the instructions in the manual.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Knew it! You ask for a car I give you one. You claim it isn't the right thing I prove it is. You say well what does that have to do with these cars.
The Si LSD is a torsen.


How about you prove it CAN'T be harmed contrary to what the owners manuals written by the manufacturer of vehicles using the torsen LSD says.


There is no conundrum for AWD drivers they just have to follow the instructions in the manual.

Yeah well, you're old and wrong and stupid and dumb and wrong.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Cole

Yeah well, you're old and wrong and stupid and dumb and wrong.

No, according to him in other threads my issue is that I am too young and inexperienced to know anything about driving or cars.

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Knew it! You ask for a car I give you one. You claim it isn't the right thing I prove it is. You say well what does that have to do with these cars.
The Si LSD is a torsen.


How about you prove it CAN'T be harmed contrary to what the owners manuals written by the manufacturer of vehicles using the torsen LSD says.


There is no conundrum for AWD drivers they just have to follow the instructions in the manual.

No manufacturer of a Torsen type diff will support your claim.

I don't have to prove anything. You're the one claiming a Torsen can be damaged by fitting tires of different rolling circumference to the output shafts (even though Subaru supplies a space saver spare that is the same size as their stock tires). I say there is no way that can happen. Physically impossible. If you understood how the Torsen worked you would not make such an absurd claim.

The Honda Si diff is not a Torsen.

And the recommendation from Subaru about fitting a space saver spare to their awd cars is?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Gforce

No manufacturer of a Torsen type diff will support your claim.

I don't have to prove anything. You're the one claiming a Torsen can be damaged by fitting tires of different rolling circumference to the output shafts (even though Subaru supplies a space saver spare that is the same size as their stock tires). I say there is no way that can happen. Physically impossible. If you understood how the Torsen worked you would not make such an absurd claim.

The Honda Si diff is not a Torsen.

And the recommendation from Subaru about fitting a space saver spare to their awd cars is?

The original question that was asked was "could it damage the diff with prolonged use?". That is what I replied yes to. Not "will it cause damage if the instructions are followed".

The Si has a torsen. I provided you with the links stating so. Their manual says it can be damaged. Period.
Whatever the manual says. I am not looking for it for you to just say that it is wrong in some manner. Period.
I fully understand how a torsen works.


I have provided documented statements not to do it. You have provided nothing but your opinion and rhetoric.


YOU are the one saying that my information is not correct so put up or shut up.

[Ultramaroon]

I haven't yet had time to confirm or dispute our earlier disagreement regarding the effect of asymmetry at the output of a torsen. After a once-over of that wikipedia entry I am at least reassured of my own understanding. Yay for me, right?

So, IMHO, it's all about duty cycle and input torque during differential operation. One could coast all day long operating with different size wheels at the outputs but once torque is applied to the inputs, force is transmitted to the worm gears axially.

Properly lubricated and operating within design parameters, hundreds of thousands of garage door openers work fine for years. Make it lift a door that's out of balance and the gears will munch themselves in no time.

The same goes for operating a torsen with different sized wheels. It's designed to operate in short bursts and then come to rest internally. It is NOT designed to operate continuously under load. It WILL munch itself eventually. How soon? I don't know but I sure as hell wouldn't go climbing any long hills that way.

My opinion only. No hard facts to back it up. Too busy with other stuff ATM.

[Gforce]

Torsen distributes torque by reacting to the resistance to the driving torque delivered to each output shaft. The higher the resistance the more torque is delivered to that axle up to the limit of the torque bias. For the T2 fitted to the BRZ the bias could be as high as 4:1 which is the bias ratio suggested, but not actually stated, in a Toyota video on the topic when the GT86 was released in 2013. It is importantbto reakuze that the limit of torque delivery is 4 times the resistance provided by the tire with less resistance, presumably the space saver spare will always reach its torque limit before the stock tire on the other axle does. Ironic that fitting the space saver actually reduces the maximum possible loading of the Torsen in an absolute sense yet it is suggested the opposite occurs.

There is no internal mechanism in the Torsen that would cause a space saver spare of smaller rolling circumference to deliver more torque to the larger wheel than would be delivered by the stock tire.

Only more engine torque applied to the pinion gear can do that.

Unless torque is resisted unequally by the output shafts there is no torque bias and no additional loading inside the Torsen. Even if torque resistance is unequal all that happens is the "spider gears" (which in a Torsen are planetary worm gears) are shoved sideways against the differential case. This biases the torque in favour of more loaded wheel and reduces torque to the less loaded wheel. By loaded, I refer to the drive torque.

Counterintuitively, the Torsen generates less frictional heat as it biases torque then it would when operating completely open.

As I say, there is no mechanism for increasing the wear on the Torsen by speeding up one drive wheel relative to the other that is not also the case got a standard open differential. I.e. the effect of the donut is trivial and no different as between an open diff and a Torsen diff.

Now, over to the "experts" who understand how Torsen diffs work who will now explain in simple terms where the forces come from and how they damage the Torsen but not the open diff.

Anyone?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Anyone?

I'm going to try and get to those free body diagrams this weekend but I am scrambling with another project. I will eagerly review any detailed analysis if you have the time to provide it.

Likewise, I will offer up mine as soon as I have something concrete.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Cole

I think I have cancer now

No, you just put in a full days work ...... you're not used to it ......


humfrz

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by Cole

Yeah well, you're old and wrong and stupid and dumb and wrong.

....... watch what you're saying there young man ....... oh, who were you talking to ...... what was this thread about ....... did I take my meds this morning ......


humfrz

[Cole]

Originally Posted by humfrz

No, you just put in a full days work ...... you're not used to it ......


humfrz

I've put in over 140 hours of work these past 12 days, don't even give me that.

Also, @Ultramaroon, you can fuck right off too for liking hums post.

God damn old men...