FRS vs Camaro Handling

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Cole

That doesn't stop the Redbull F1 team from cheating all the time though.

All teams spend time and money looking if they can bend the rules.

They've also spent time testing magnetic dampers, if there was an advantage to be had they would lobby to get them un-banned or have tried sneaking them in.

Movable aero was banned, now it's mandatory in a controlled way.



The Penske employee who posted here a few times mentioned that magnetic dampers haven't been pursued in racing because the fluid is too abrasive and wears out the inside of the damper too quick so it's totally out of spec after a session (let alone a long race). The only way OE's get away with it on road cars is because the tolerances are set sloppy to begin with and the butt dyno is not sensitive enough to notice the degradation.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

All teams spend time and money looking if they can bend the rules.

They've also spent time testing magnetic dampers, if there was an advantage to be had they would lobby to get them un-banned or have tried sneaking them in.

Movable aero was banned, now it's mandatory in a controlled way.



The Penske employee who posted here a few times mentioned that magnetic dampers haven't been pursued in racing because the fluid is too abrasive and wears out the inside of the damper too quick so it's totally out of spec after a session (let alone a long race). The only way OE's get away with it on road cars is because the tolerances are set sloppy to begin with and the butt dyno is not sensitive enough to notice the degradation.

I'm not saying that other teams don't, but Redbull seems to get caught a lot. Maybe they get some cheap thrills out of it? I personally don't care about F1, but it seems like there's way too much restrictions on what you can and can't do.

Can confirm the bolded part. I used to work in a factory that made parts for certain American makes. "Sloppy" may be a generous term.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I hate this meme, those tires were designed for high end luxury cars from Audi, Lexus, and Merc. The lexus connection probably has more to do with it than the Prius which they just chucked on for one trim package in Japan.

But I agree with your point, they're totally underrated and expensive for a reason.

Thank you! The Cadillac ATS and Mercedes E-Class come with the all-season version of these from the factory.

[unhappymeal]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This^
Like usual, half the people here are fixated on the numbers as presented on paper (well glass I guess) and have never even driven most of the cars they keep referring to. I have actually driven a couple of brand new Camaros and although the weight looks bad on paper the whole package is designed to deal with it and the car does not feel heavy at all.
People need to start actually driving the cars they make broad sweeping statements about based purely on the numbers or what they "think".

This. This so much this. Hell, even the SRT LX platform cars (Charger and Challenger) that people shit on for being overweight whales are remarkably composed through turns and sweepers.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

The Camaro in question has a lateral grip of 1.1G stock. So....yeah. Don't know where the base model V6 came in to play with its all season tires and steel wheels.... also, I'm thinking you meant a "1lt"


Link for JUST different tire grip of twin? Never seen the lateral G's with JUST tires posted or compared. What tires?

Here's the info on the 2016 camaro...

http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/...14-camaro.html

LIGHTER 2016 CAMARO DELIVERS BENCHMARK PERFORMANCE
2016 Camaro SS delivers 0-60 acceleration in 4.0 seconds; 0.97 g cornering grip
2015-09-14

Print Print Send Email Word Share Add This

PRODUCT INFORMATION
2016 Camaro
DETROIT – Less weight and more power is the combination for performance success and engineers of the 2016 Camaro have the numbers to prove it. With weight savings of up to 390 pounds (177 kg), the all-new Camaro delivers performance numbers that reset the benchmark for the segment.

Chevrolet testing shows the all-new, 455-hp (336 kW) Camaro SS coupe – the most powerful Camaro SS ever – sprints from 0-60 mph in 4.0 seconds and covers the quarter-mile in 12.3 seconds, when equipped with the all-new eight-speed paddle-shift automatic transmission.

The other Gen Six Camaro coupe models are commensurately quick, with the 275-hp (205) 2.0L Turbo delivering 5.4-second 0-60 performance and a 14.0-second quarter-mile, with the six-speed manual. With the available, 335-hp (250 kW) 3.6L V-6 and eight-speed automatic, the Camaro zips to 60 mph in 5.1 seconds and down the quarter-mile in only 13.5 seconds.

“The performance of the Camaro 2.0L Turbo will challenge many of the iconic muscle cars from the 1960s, while the Camaro SS’s performance – including 0.97 g cornering – makes it one of the most capable 2+2 coupes on the market,” said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. “The performance numbers only tell half of the story, because the lighter curb weight also makes the new Camaro feel more responsive and agile behind the wheel. It brakes more powerfully, dives into corners quicker, accelerates faster and is more fun to drive than ever.”

With standard 18-inch wheels and Goodyear Eagle Sport all-season tires, the 2.0L Turbo delivers 0.85 g in cornering grip and 60-0-mph braking in 129 feet. With the RS package, which includes 20-inch wheels and Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric all-season run-flat tires, the 3.6L V-6 delivers 0.89 g in cornering and 60-0 mph braking in 124 feet. The Camaro SS features Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 run-flat summer-only tires, enabling 0.97 g in cornering and 60-0 braking in 117 feet.

2016 Camaro
coupe
0-60 mph
(sec.)
Quarter-Mile
(sec. @ mph)
Grip (max. lateral)
60-0 mph braking (feet)
2.0L turbo
w/18-in. tires
5.4 (man.)
5.5 (auto.)
14.0 @ 100 (man.)
14.0 @ 99 (auto.)
0.85 g
129
3.6L V-6
w/20-in. RF3 tires
5.2 (man.)
5.1 (auto.)
13.7 @ 102 (man.)
13.5 @ 103 (auto.)
0.89 g
124
6.2L V-8
w/20-in. RF4 tires
4.3 (man.)
4.0 (auto.)
12.5 @ 115 (man.)
12.3 @ 116 (auto.)
0.97 g
117


AND here's the info on the twin...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ransformation/


Install the Dunlops on the stock wheels, and presto-bingo! We have a new winner. The FR-S dropped 2.3 sec. with a simple tire swap. And not only does the car maintain its wonderful balance, it's vastly improved. The FR-S' sharp steering is enhanced by the tires' grip, providing a dramatic increase in feedback—with the Dunlops' greater forgiveness at higher slip angles, you can literally turn the steering wheel more.



If you own a BRZ or FR-S, you owe it to yourself to upgrade the tires and feel the way your car was meant to drive.

Mazdaspeed3 Subaru WRX Scion FR-S Scion FR-S Scion FR-S
TIRE Dunlop SP Sport 2050 Dunlop SP Sport 01 Michelin Primacy HP Dunlop Star Spec Dunlop Star Spec
SIZE 225/40-18 88Y 235/45-17 94W 215/45-17 87W 215/45-17 87W 235/40-18 91W
UTQG TREADWEAR 240 280 240 200 200
LAP TIME 1:27.6 1:28.3 1:29.3 1:27.0 1:27.6
MAX TRACK SPEED 98.8 mph 96.3 mph 93.6 mph 94.0 mph 92.5 mph
0-60 MPH 6.2 sec 5.0 sec 6.6 sec 6.5 sec 6.6 sec
SKIDPAD 0.89g 0.90g 0.89g 0.94g 0.96g
SLALOM 69.2 mph 68.9 mph 67.8 mph 70.2 mph 71.2 mph

[Summerwolf]

Wow....and none of those are any version of a 1LE car.


Like stated the 1LE SS is a 1.1 lateral G vehicle. I'm actually impressed with a BASE MODEL SS being able to do .97G, still higher numerically than a twin on good tires (according to your two magazine sources).....

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by ST185RC

I will say this, the 86 is very communicative and for a RWD it's very user friendly. It makes you FEEL special because you can do things in it with less worry.

The camaro, while heavier, will trounce the 86 in EVERY measurable sense outside of a space bigger than a parking lot marked with cones, stock for stock.

Is the Camaro a better car? Yeah, if you're into numbers.

If you're into how the car communicates to you, then maybe not. 500lbs is a lot of extra weight to try and steer with the rear axle. It may not instill the same sense of confidence when at the limit.

I digress, I test drove a mustang GT and it FELT like it had worse handling. It brake-dives, I didn't feel confident that I can maintain control of the rear if taken a bit higher towards the limit, and steering felt a bit disconnected and I FELT like it handled worse. On paper, the Mustang is lightyears ahead in performance except weight. I suspect that the Camaro will be something similar.

FRS FEELS like it handles better because it will do everything you expect it to do without getting into serious trouble. But the mustang is far more capable beyond most peoples' driving abilities.

Have you ever driven an Alpha Camaro? It sounds like it does a great job at keeping the driver connected to the car. The steering, handling, throttle response, and pretty much everything else like that seem to be very on point (aside from visibility). But, it also has a LOT more usable torque than the 86.


I don't really think it's fair to judge the Camaro based on the Mustang. The Mustang seems like a nice grand tourer, whereas the Camaro sounds like a legitimate driver's car.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The ND Miata is superior to the 86.

I agree, but it's also a 2 seat convertible. There haven't been many fun to drive, affordable 2+2 Rwd coupes that have been made available aside from the 86. If I had never bought my FRS and was in the market right now the v6 1LE would definitely be on my radar for a DD.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ST185RC

Kinda "tired" of people knocking the stock tires for being crappy for the wrong reasons.

Please read again my comments within the specific CONTEXT. I answered on a comparison of cars related with lateral g forces and brake performance. Thanks!

[8RZ]

Yay for MS3 lol.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

Have you ever driven an Alpha Camaro? It sounds like it does a great job at keeping the driver connected to the car. The steering, handling, throttle response, and pretty much everything else like that seem to be very on point (aside from visibility). But, it also has a LOT more usable torque than the 86.


I don't really think it's fair to judge the Camaro based on the Mustang. The Mustang seems like a nice grand tourer, whereas the Camaro sounds like a legitimate driver's car.



I agree, but it's also a 2 seat convertible. There haven't been many fun to drive, affordable 2+2 Rwd coupes that have been made available aside from the 86. If I had never bought my FRS and was in the market right now the v6 1LE would definitely be on my radar for a DD.

I would consider the V6 1le for my next car if it wasn't for that damned visibility. The seating position is way less bathtub like than the last gen but the visibility is still a sticking point for me. I spend way too much time on the highway trying to avoid transports and morons in minivans or pickup trucks to try to struggle with a view that only allows me to see about 30% around the car.


Oh, and the new Mustangs are no slouch in the drivers car department either.

[Dadhawk]

My opinion for what it's worth, as someone who would happily own either car...

Overall the 1LE is the superior car in terms of all around performance, functionality and practicality.

Dollar for dollar the FR-S is as good a car as the Camaro.

Here's why. I cross-shopped both cars in 2012. The current gen Camaro absolutely closed and jumped over the gap in all the areas that made a difference for me. If making the decision today it would be a much harder choice.

In the end though the biggest issue is the same as it was then. By the time I configure the Camaro like I would be willing to own it, its a $45-50K car. Most of that is because GM packages their options so tightly that to get the one thing I want I have to pay for $10,000 of stuff I don't want. If I'm going to spend that much I'm going to buy a (used) C7 Vette (not available in 2012).

I also would not buy a new 86, because it has not changed enough to justify the price difference between a 2013 and a 2017 (I personally put no value in owning a new car, so used is a viable option for me).

So, I guess in the end in 2017 I would buy a used C7 Vette before either of these cars.

Now if you were going to hand me the keys to the 86 vs the Camaro 1LE and telling me I had to drive it for the next 5 years, I'm taking the 1LE. In 2013, I would have taken the FR-S.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

If you consider RE71R's and BFG-RS street tires you can get an 86 to do that with minimal effort.
.

You're thinking of instant lateral G readings. MT, however, has different procedure to come up with those numbers. And no, it won't be with minimal effort 1.09g with street tires take a lot more to achieve. Those tires will definitely help (it did with my BRZ) but nowhere near close to those levels.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

I'm sure even a base 6th gen SS would do quite well in the "touge" let alone a 1le car.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

This^
...
People need to start actually driving the cars they make broad sweeping statements about based purely on the numbers or what they "think".

I am all on this. People will have a better picture if they drive their cars in "touge" like roads and not mainly on the highway. It is an entirely different world.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I said that the Cammaro will be faster. I am not questioning that the FRS will be faster only with better tires. It 'll just be way better. I am also saying that the weight is an important factor for handling that noone can ignore it. The aero / magnetic dampers are b*shit. If they could give even a slight advantage on a track, don't you think the racing teams wouldn't use them? Most of the racing teams in Europe use Bilsteins, Ohlins etc.

In general Subaru knows how to make very good handling cars, they are just back nowdays on the powerplant aspect because they are still using very aging engines. Even the best GT3 cars (Porsches, Mercedes etc.) don't dare to pass a Subaru on a corner. They wait for the straight parts to pass them. This is a fact and it has been mentioned by the professional Subaru race drivers.

What makes you think Ferrari, GM or Porsche uses BS dampers on their high end models?

We cannot easily compare a race car to a track ready sports car because race teams have different goals when they use certain setups (same can be said for aeros, fluids, and pretty much all the other things you can think of.

Magnetic shocks are great if you will be sticking to the OEM specs or be close to that and without making dramatic changes to those I see no reason to switch to coilover setup .. again unless a race team has different goals, regulations ..etc

For the sake of the accurate data comparison, I think it's best to talk about the street legal cars