Wrecked FR-S Crash Already - Not Mine

[sazu]

Originally Posted by neutral

Hey everyone.

I'm the idiot that crashed the FR-S. Not really sure where to begin, so I'll start with how it happened.

I was on my way to lunch with a coworker. There's a right turn I've taken a million times over the past 4 years that's very wide and has huge visibility, and I would sometimes get on the gas a little in my B16-swapped CRX through the turn. I never went over the speed limit, and I only did it if there was absolutely no one else around. Being a FWD, the front tires would break free a little and it would make the turn a bit more fun. Well, before leaving work I decided it would be a good idea to turn off the traction control and try something similar in the FR-S. That was my first mistake. I entered the turn at about 20mph, and halfway through it I got on the gas and I honestly can't remember exactly what happened after that. I remember being extremely surprised and then all of a sudden I was careening for a telephone pole, and then bam. I don't even think I hit the brakes. I must've hit the clutch pedal at some point because the car was still running when I stopped. Both airbags deployed. My passenger said he didn't even touch the airbag, I grazed it a little bit and it felt like I got hit in the face with a soft pillow. I must've been going 15-20mph at the impact. I couldn't believe how much the car just crumpled. I just looked at it and sat on the ground. I can't even describe to you the feeling of seeing it like that. I just wanted to cry.

I'm 24 years old, been driving since 16, and this is my first accident/ticket. I was ticketed for "failure to maintain reasonable control", which honestly was extremely generous given the circumstances. I feel like the world's biggest idiot. I feel like I've shamed myself and done a huge disservice to the community. Sorry just doesn't say enough. I swore I wouldn't be one of those guys everyone was saying would do something stupid and wreck the car and drive up the insurance rates. Now I'm not only that guy, but it seems I'm the _first_ guy. Not exactly the best way to make an impression. I want you guys to know that I truly feel awful about the whole thing. I am truly sorry for letting my fellow FR-S owners down, and through making a complete ass out of myself, I feel I've learned a valuable lesson, albeit a hard one. I know some of you (a lot of you) will hate me, call me an idiot, tell me I shouldn't have even tried anything like that on a public road, etc. And I agree with you 100%. I made a stupid, stupid, irresponsible choice, and now I'm paying for it. I don't think any of you can hate me more than I hate myself.

I hope I can stand as an example of what can happen even at relatively low speeds when you're being stupid. Please for the love of god don't be me. Drive safe, keep traction control on on public roads, and don't try to be Ken Block. Unless you are Ken Block, in which case, keep being awesome.

Wahh best ! Thumbs up from me

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by R8

But on the street, I'd greatly prefer those systems to "gloss over" your mistakes before you crash into me. On the street, I choose to not participate in other's driver's training lessons. I want and expect other drivers to use every nanny system they can AND their skills to avoid hurting me or the people I love.

Lemme rephrase: I'd rather feel the traction limits and adjust my inputs myself than have the computer (which has ZERO knowledge of where the car needs to be pointed) cut power or apply asymmetric braking, taking control away from me.

99+% of the driving population is putting you at MUCH greater risk than I am, because they have zero practice controlling a car beyond the limits of adhesion. They are more likely to give stupid inputs that cause a loss of traction, and then when things start to go wrong, they will almost always do the wrong thing.

That is the case here. Nailing the throttle mid-turn is piss poor driving technique, and then abruptly getting off the gas when rear traction is lost (almost certainly what happened) is exactly the wrong response. Either the back end will come around even harder due to unloading the rears, or the rears will regain traction and the car will hook while pointing in the wrong direction.

I'd rather drive with skilled drivers and no ABS/TC/SC nannies than with unskilled drivers and all the best nannies currently available. Unfortunately that only happens at the track...

[Brett]

Originally Posted by AeroWRX

Question: How did people drive RWD cars back in the day when there was no such thing as a traction control??? I don't understand why turning off stability control automatically warrants a crash...

How did they drive? They probably had more accidents, which inspired someone to invent traction control.

I suspect that the average car without traction and stability control is designed to be less dynamic and more stable than the average car with traction and stability control. It seems like these driver aids would free the engineers to move the poles closer to the right half plane. Sort of like how the F16 is designed to be aerodynamically unstable to be more maneuverable. Not a perfect example but you get the idea.

Brett

[Brett]

Originally Posted by Z.Tune

well, I almost never have my traction control on, unless its a very bad raining day.

BUT, I NEVER HAD AN ACCIDENT.

So, IMO, its not about the car, its about the driver.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. I've never died. Does that mean I'm going to live forever?

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by AeroWRX

Question: How did people drive RWD cars back in the day when there was no such thing as a traction control??? I don't understand why turning off stability control automatically warrants a crash...

We were taught to drive rear wheel drive cars from the beginning. High schools had driver education courses in rear wheel drive cars. I do not know about all schools but mine included parallel parking, slalom and driving on a wet "skid pad" (actually a wet parking lot). We were taught braking control (no ABS) and skid recovery.

People still had wrecks but we understood rear wheel drive characteristics much better than the average driver today.

[Brett]

Originally Posted by Rampage

We were taught to drive rear wheel drive cars from the beginning. High schools had driver education courses in rear wheel drive cars. I do not know about all schools but mine included parallel parking, slalom and driving on a wet "skid pad" (actually a wet parking lot). We were taught braking control (no ABS) and skid recovery.

People still had wrecks but we understood rear wheel drive characteristics much better than the average driver today.

Good point. I learned to drive in a 1992 Ford F150 in the snow in Chicago. You get so much practice with the tail sliding around in those conditions that it's still automatic 16 years later.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'd rather feel the traction limits and adjust my inputs myself than have the computer (which has ZERO knowledge of where the car needs to be pointed) cut power or apply asymmetric braking, taking control away from me.

actually our car uses a complex set of algorithms to determine a general plane of direction within a 10 degree tolerance, calculations are based on yaw, pitch, steering angle, current speed and direction, change in steering angle(rate of change and direction), application of brakes, current grip and change in grip

our stability control is very smart vs a lot of other cars, but still shouldnt be relied on, i dont when its dry buy def when its wet and im taking a lot less risks or having it on incase it happens when im not trying to make it happen

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

actually our car uses a complex set of algorithms to determine a general plane of direction within a 10 degree tolerance, calculations are based on yaw, pitch, steering angle, current speed and direction, change in steering angle(rate of change and direction), application of brakes, current grip and change in grip

our stability control is very smart vs a lot of other cars, but still shouldnt be relied on, i dont when its dry buy def when its wet and im taking a lot less risks or having it on incase it happens when im not trying to make it happen

However smart it is, it *still* doesn't know which way the car REALLY needs to be pointed/going.

I'd rather maintain a mild drift around a corner myself than have a blind non-sentient system try to understeer me right off the road.

[Celicadude]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

This is exactly, why I think that especially Lambo owners are no sports drivers. And the same is true for most Ferrari drivers. Way to much horsepower, but no driving skills to handle it.

Actually the FWD grew so much because it is cheaper to produce a new "sports car" based on a standard FWD car platform than to develop a new RWD platform for this car. That's all, it's just about money.

I see a very bad tendency today in cars coming up, that go very good in the dry (because this is, where all the magazines do their tests), but are very difficult to drive in the wet.
Actually there are cars today, that do not have a well developed suspension. Instead the manufacturer just hopes, that VSC will keep the car on the road...somehow. Exactly this is the reason, why you can't switch off VSC in many modern cars. Again it's all about money - to save developing costs for a good suspension.
Have you ever thought what will happen, if your VSC doesn't work properly or just fails?
It would be better to force manufactures legally to have a VSC/TCS/ABS off mode, so they are forced to develop good suspensions.

In addition, VSC together with well developed driving skills can get dangerous, because the system does not compensate for your steering response. The same is true for some other modern assist systems.

This is exactly my point. The car culture today is stuck in this whole "you must suck at driving or it's no fun if you leave the traction control on" mentality. This is fine if you have taken the time to properly learn to drive your vehicle in a safe and controlled environment. Problem is is that all these newbs to rwd are jumping into these cars thinking the exact same thing. Traction control off does not automatically make you a better driver. My point with the lambo/ferrari experience is that driving a track involves way more than just "wheither or not the traction control is on or off". TCS off does not help your driving line. Ie: you dont need to worry about traction control on a track to have fun, if you are just starting out. I dont know how many times I heard people who rolled up in their honda civics to the event asking if they could turn off traction control (in a ferrari no less, that I gurantee no one had experience driving). Meanwhile the actual regulars to the track could care less, and had a great time. Now if you are seasoned professional and want more of a challenge then yes go ahead turn everything off. But for the 99% of the people out there that think they know what they are doing, do yourselves a favor keep it on. You'll only be wasting your money because you wrecked your brand new car because you thought you knew what you are doing. Nobody is saying to keep vsc on at the track, but if anything this thread has shown us is that it might not be a bad idea to a) not showboat on public roads and b) keep the vsc on when you're on a public street.

Learn the basics, develop the skills, move on to more difficult stuff. For the sake of your car, your wallet, and the general public that you may harm including yourself, keep the "fun" at the track and be safe on the public roads. Live to race another day.

[sysfailur]

I will throw this out in this thread since the subject of accidents is being discussed. Let's not forget the importance of tires. I will admit that 3 years ago I made a mistake in my car before I realized just how terrible my stock summer tires (on a 2008 sti) were around 45F on a fall run. I had traction control off and even with AWD if your tires are not good in the cold, a little trickle of water in the road after rain in a curve can send you for a spin. It happened to me and I was probably going 30mph on a curve with an AWD car.

Morale of the story here is don't feel 100% safe or the master of your car at any point and try to take precautions when you can. I've never ever had my car kick out like it did that day, it felt like I was driving on ice and all I hit was about a 2-3" wide stream of water in a turn, with too cold tires and no TCS on.

Thankfully the damage was purely cosmetic (a scuffed wheel, some dirt, and a scratched bumper) but I learned that A: TCS stays in the green for me (middle option) during the summer. It allows for just a little of sliding but it's nearly impossible to break traction with my 275 star specs heh B: Learn your tires. My star specs seem to handle lower temps and rain far better than the SP 600 sports that came stock. But I still leave TCS fully on when it's colder than 45F and rainy out now. (And I've got a set of winter tires.) C: Turn TCS off only during auto-x or track days if you feel comfortable. I found that my fastest times and best handling came from TCS off in auto-x w/ diff fully to the rear but I would never drive like that on the street now!

I'm not sure how different the TCS is from my car to the BRZ but I would imagine it's fairly similar. From what I've read it has the same OFF, GREEN, and ON options + more. I'll definitely be playing with it at my first auto-x and in parking lots before I make any decisions on what to use for daily driving.

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

[slizoth]

Originally Posted by Celicadude

This is exactly my point. The car culture today is stuck in this whole "you must suck at driving or it's no fun if you leave the traction control on" mentality. This is fine if you have taken the time to properly learn to drive your vehicle in a safe and controlled environment. Problem is is that all these newbs to rwd are jumping into these cars thinking the exact same thing. Traction control off does not automatically make you a better driver. My point with the lambo/ferrari experience is that driving a track involves way more than just "wheither or not the traction control is on or off". TCS off does not help your driving line. Ie: you dont need to worry about traction control on a track to have fun, if you are just starting out. I dont know how many times I heard people who rolled up in their honda civics to the event asking if they could turn off traction control (in a ferrari no less, that I gurantee no one had experience driving). Meanwhile the actual regulars to the track could care less, and had a great time. Now if you are seasoned professional and want more of a challenge then yes go ahead turn everything off. But for the 99% of the people out there that think they know what they are doing, do yourselves a favor keep it on. You'll only be wasting your money because you wrecked your brand new car because you thought you knew what you are doing. Nobody is saying to keep vsc on at the track, but if anything this thread has shown us is that it might not be a bad idea to a) not showboat on public roads and b) keep the vsc on when you're on a public street.

Learn the basics, develop the skills, move on to more difficult stuff. For the sake of your car, your wallet, and the general public that you may harm including yourself, keep the "fun" at the track and be safe on the public roads. Live to race another day.

Yup, I was just telling my co-worker about how much I want to finish the first 1000 miles so I can take the car out to an empty parking lot or a gravel field, ect. and Practice. See how the car handles when its slipping or when the VSC is on/Off, ect. Knowing this kind of stuff and practicing before you start sliding unexpectedly allows you to not be "surprised" and keep your reaction times to a minimum

[drifter]

Some really good lessons here on how to drift. Not the same car, but still good info;

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUoCOULhZtY"]How To Drift On Forza Motorsport 3 - YouTube[/ame]

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

....
in conclusion what im trying to say, is the rear will snap at you where you want it NOT to happen, at low speeds, through things like traffic lights, round abouts, street corners, and any kind of low speed turn on black top or grooved pavement really, most of these areas put you close to other cars, people, houses, and light poles
....

Let me explain this: An LSD can stabilize your car in a moderate drift angle.
Or it can lead to a big drift and spin.
The difference is the relation of three factors:
- Nm at the rear wheel
- Grip
- Side acceleration.
As long as these three stay within a certain window, you come out with a moderate drift angle. If one or more of these are ouside of this window, then better react very fast!
- Nm = too much throttle - which can be easier achieved at low speed!
- Grip = what is sufficient on dry tramac will lead to a big spin in the wet!
- Side acceleration = the closer you are to the maximum speed in a certain corner, the less throttle is needed to send you in a drift.

Keep in mind: Your throttle control is not an on/off switch!

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Not really the point. There's no reason to turn it off if equipped but the lack of them doesn't mean death and destruction. There's just no real value in turning them off on the street.

Yes, there IS a real value!
But this does certainly not mean, that every unexperienced driver should switch it off and try to drift on public roads!

Originally Posted by Brett

How did they drive? They probably had more accidents, which inspired someone to invent traction control.

I suspect that the average car without traction and stability control is designed to be less dynamic and more stable than the average car with traction and stability control. It seems like these driver aids would free the engineers to move the poles closer to the right half plane. Sort of like how the F16 is designed to be aerodynamically unstable to be more maneuverable. Not a perfect example but you get the idea.

Brett

This explanation sounds nice, but unfortunately it does not reflect the truth.
In fact cars with activated traction and stability controls are SLOWER than with deactivated systems.
Actually these systems are often used today to mask insufficient suspension development.
Many modern cars come with very stiff suspension. The reason is the enormous weight, that reduces their handling ability quite a lot. Therefor these cars come with very stiff suspension and a very direct steering gear to give an impression of good handling despite their overweight.
As a result these cars work quite well on dry tarmac, but are very difficult to drive in the wet. Exactly THIS is the reason for stability control and traction control in modern cars: Without these systems such heavy cars are somewhat dangerous in the wet.

Originally Posted by Celicadude

This is exactly my point. The car culture today is stuck in this whole "you must suck at driving or it's no fun if you leave the traction control on" mentality. This is fine if you have taken the time to properly learn to drive your vehicle in a safe and controlled environment. Problem is is that all these newbs to rwd are jumping into these cars thinking the exact same thing. Traction control off does not automatically make you a better driver. ............

Yes, switching it off does not necessarily makes you a better driver.
But:
Why was everybody crying: "Oh, the Toyobaru needs more power! We want turbo charging!"
I tell you what: Driving fun has hardly anything to do with power!
This car has more than enough power, for some it will even be too much.
Why drive a Lambo with 600 hp, if you are unable to control it?
You will have much more fun in an old BMW E30 with 100 hp, that you can drive by yourself.
Driving fun for a sports driver comes out of a lively handling and the ability to drive a car at its limits.
If you can't drive a certain car at its limit without VSC/TSC, please don't try it with these systems! This is dangerous, too!

Learn how to drive your car in situations, where it is not dangerous to you or others! Look for a wide open place, that allows you to learn, how your car reacts. Join a driver safety course, that includes kick plate and learn, how to catch your car, if it starts to slip (I assure you, this will teach you awe!). Use the winter time to practice drifting on a wide place all covered with snow, as everthing happens slower under these conditions and its very easy to bring the car in a drift. This will help a lot to develop the steering reflex.
Train yourself, become an experienced driver.

The most important point is: Always handle your car with AWE!
NEVER underestimate, what your car can do in extreme situations!
200 hp can create a lot of fun - and a lot of fear!!

[Tomzilla]

Originally Posted by Brett

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. I've never died. Does that mean I'm going to live forever?

This guy. +1