Wrecked FR-S Crash Already - Not Mine

[R8]

Originally Posted by sysfailur

Unless you know what you're doing please leave the traction control on...

And even if someone IS experienced... why turn it off on the street? It only intervenes when the wheels break loose, right? So it's not something anyone should be TRYING to do in public anyway.

And besides, there are unexpected events where it might save someone, regardless of skill, such as an emergency lane change. No one, no matter how skilled, can brake one side of the car to straighten it out (as stability control will).

[Partial Stall]

Originally Posted by fito68

Taking a right hand turn at 20? the street isnt a fucking track!

Sorry, but taking a wide open 90 degree turn at 20 feels incredibly stable and planted in the BRZ/FR-S. The traction control light doesn't even come on unless you power through it in 1st.

I would just use sport traction control mode awhile untill one is used to the back end swinging out. I took the brz to a big open parking after she hit 1000 miles about a week ago. I learned alot about how the car responds to different inputs during hard acceleration.

[Exhaust]

So, selling any parts?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by R8

And even if someone IS experienced... why turn it off on the street?

Because I want the car to respond naturally to loss of traction.

It only intervenes when the wheels break loose, right? So it's not something anyone should be TRYING to do in public anyway.

I've broken the rear wheels loose unintentionally, and definitely prefer to leave gathering it back up to myself. Two brains (one electronic) trying to do the same thing by different methods isn't necessarily ideal...

And besides, there are unexpected events where it might save someone, regardless of skill, such as an emergency lane change. No one, no matter how skilled, can brake one side of the car to straighten it out (as stability control will).

Problem is, the stability control system has NO idea where the car should really be pointed, and will try to straighten it out even if continued rotation is necessary to avoid a collision!

These systems aren't perfect. The best brain in the car with the most complete knowledge of the situation is still going to be the driver's in most cases. If said driver has the requisite skills to control a sliding car, probably best to leave control in his hands (and feet).

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by FT_Monk

So many driving geniuses in this thread; VSC/TSC/ABS are hindrance to their superior driving skills. Of course they don't tell you when they crashed.

I want to know when I make mistakes, I don't want them to be glossed over by stability/traction control systems.

My crashes: 1996 at Road Atlanta in the 240Z. Damp track, too much speed through the esses, lost it in 5, backed it into an Jersey barrier.
2001 at Watkins Glen: Carried WAY more speed through the chicane and turn 5, used the same brake point into the laces of the boot despite entering at 5-10mph faster. Trail-braked like mad, got sideways, gathered it back up, but by then out of track. Went off, backed it into an embankment. Same corner of the car (left rear). Doh.

A miraculous stability control system might have saved me in both cases, but more likely with current state of the art systems I'd have just impacted with the front right corner of the car instead of the rear left. I just went in too hot in both cases.

Since then, hundreds of thousands of miles (many on snow/ice) on the street and tens of thousands on the track without the benefit of traction/stability controls in multiple rwd cars without incident.

The idea that "it could happen to anyone!" is utter b.s. It *is* possible to develop driving skills and minimize the likelihood of this type of incident.

I'm not a "driving genius", but I do have a developed/practiced skillset that 99% of the driving public (or more) simply do not have because they've never practiced driving at the limit. If you haven't driven a rwd car at the limit, you can't be expected to do the right thing when things start to go bad.

Do autoX, do track days. Way better than having traction and stability controls...

[coyote]

Originally Posted by neutral

... don't try to be Ken Block. Unless you are Ken Block, in which case, keep being awesome.

Looks to me exactly like just about every WRC car Ken Block has ever driven.

[russv]

Originally Posted by R8

And even if someone IS experienced... why turn it off on the street? It only intervenes when the wheels break loose, right? So it's not something anyone should be TRYING to do in public anyway.

And besides, there are unexpected events where it might save someone, regardless of skill, such as an emergency lane change. No one, no matter how skilled, can brake one side of the car to straighten it out (as stability control will).

^^This^^

[Sleeperz]

You need to be this good, maybe just half as good, doing power turns. See how the drivers steer in the direction where they want to go even while doing a 4 wheel drift.




[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfPgxkeJvhU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfPgxkeJvhU[/ame]




[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHnfm3LN4Q&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHnfm3LN4Q&feature=related[/ame]

Originally Posted by sysfailur

Unless you know what you're doing please leave the traction control on folks. /dislikethread. And I don't even HAVE my BRZ yet.... grah.

[R8]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I want to know when I make mistakes, I don't want them to be glossed over by stability/traction control systems.

But on the street, I'd greatly prefer those systems to "gloss over" your mistakes before you crash into me. On the street, I choose to not participate in other's driver's training lessons. I want and expect other drivers to use every nanny system they can AND their skills to avoid hurting me or the people I love.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by blur

We all know that the FR-S is an extremely easy car to reach a point of oversteer with, while other cars dial in understeer (such as the BRZ) to prevent it a little more. Many car reviewers were surprised to see such a raw car in stock configuration. Why do you think Subaru went with more understeer? Because most people who've had AWD cars know nothing about oversteer, and even though many reviewers said that the tail of this car comes out very naturally, it's obviously still surprising for someone with previous experience of FWD/AWD.

You are right, the BRZ seems to be a little more stable on the rear axle.
However, the BRZ is still a 200 hp lightweight RWD car, and you sure can get the rear axle traction brake off.
In the accident described here I wouldn't expect any difference, if the driver would have used and FR-S, and BRZ or an MX-5.

Yes, the main point is, that you need to learn, how to handle oversteer, no matter what kind of RWD car you pick.

Folks, my first car was an old beetle with merely 34 hp. RWD, rear engine and certainly no electronic nannies at all. But with a swing axle, that lead to lots of oversteer, if pushed. There was no option, you had to learn by yourself, how to handle RWD.
Nowadays, people start with FWD, hop into their very first RWD car with even 6 times as much power, and expect that all the stupid electronic crap keeps them from learning, how to drive a car and everything has to be fool prove. At the same time all these people moan: Oh, this car needs more power!
I have to say, that makes me somewhat concerned....

Don't get me wrong, I don't say "switch of the VSC and go full throttle".
I just say, learn by time how to drive a RWD car. This can also be done on large empty places late at night or on autocross or whatever can be found in your part of the world.
This is why I already twice asked, if someone has a little tutorial how to learn handling oversteer a RWD car to support the beginners - or if I finally need to translate mine (which is not really easy for me, as I am not a native speaker and often lack the right technical terms)

Originally Posted by Celicadude

Dude seriously this whole mentality of you cant have fun unless the traction control is a load off crap and is what is going to get more of these cars wrapped around more poles. I just came back from a ferrari/lambo driving event that i found on groupon and had a blast. And all the electronic nannies were on and doing their thing. In fact, I was too busy looking for the next apex to even care. For the vast majority of people purchasing this car this will be their first experience driving a rwd sports car (hell for some people on here this will be their first manual car).

I wouldn't be surprised the reason the vast majority of sports cars in the late 80's-90's were either discontinued or changed to fwd was because of the difficulty of the average driver to recover from oversteer (ie: old corollas and celicas). Not everyone is a weekend enthusiast and most of us grew up driving fwd platforms, myself included. So now that rwd has been made a little more user friendly the automotive world/press has decided to bash tcs/vcs etc, the same tcs/vsc that I believe has convinced many manufacturers to bring back the rwd sports car to joe schmoe public. The reason all these journalists hate the "nannies" is because they've been driving for years. And to be quite honest I would too if I had their kind of experience. But I don't, so I'm going to know my limits until I get better and move up to something more challenging. And yes, could someone still demolish their car with everything still on? Yes, but why making it even more likely to happen by turning them off, especially in the hands of someone inexperienced.

So if you are new to this car or any rwd car for that matter, go to the track and learn its limits. Get professional training, and have fun in a safe environment. Start with everything on, and THEN work your way up to everything off.

This is exactly, why I think that especially Lambo owners are no sports drivers. And the same is true for most Ferrari drivers. Way to much horsepower, but no driving skills to handle it.

Actually the FWD grew so much because it is cheaper to produce a new "sports car" based on a standard FWD car platform than to develop a new RWD platform for this car. That's all, it's just about money.

I see a very bad tendency today in cars coming up, that go very good in the dry (because this is, where all the magazines do their tests), but are very difficult to drive in the wet.
Actually there are cars today, that do not have a well developed suspension. Instead the manufacturer just hopes, that VSC will keep the car on the road...somehow. Exactly this is the reason, why you can't switch off VSC in many modern cars. Again it's all about money - to save developing costs for a good suspension.
Have you ever thought what will happen, if your VSC doesn't work properly or just fails?
It would be better to force manufactures legally to have a VSC/TCS/ABS off mode, so they are forced to develop good suspensions.

In addition, VSC together with well developed driving skills can get dangerous, because the system does not compensate for your steering response. The same is true for some other modern assist systems.

[Stigmaru]

Question: How did people drive RWD cars back in the day when there was no such thing as a traction control??? I don't understand why turning off stability control automatically warrants a crash...

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by Brett

I imagine he'll make Jalopnik eventually. This forum seems to be their source of FRS news after all.

Brett

Yeah we are like royalty to the Automotive world!

Damn this guy is going to be famous!

[blu_]

Originally Posted by AeroWRX

Question: How did people drive RWD cars back in the day when there was no such thing as a traction control??? I don't understand why turning off stability control automatically warrants a crash...

Because before Fast and Furious movies. duh....

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by AeroWRX

Question: How did people drive RWD cars back in the day when there was no such thing as a traction control??? I don't understand why turning off stability control automatically warrants a crash...

Yeah your right, but a lot of people did crash easy back in them days...But there is not point in driving with the system totally off in a FR-S\BRZ on street roads. Keep it in sport mode....