17 year old looking for BRZ as a first car.

[MuseChaser]

Shawnie,

You DO sound like an intelligent, level-headed, mature, grateful youth, and I commend you for it. The following is not directed at you personally.. just some more of my signature sweeping generalizations.

Tcoat, while I haven't been one of the folks here who've denigrated Shawnie for having the good fortune to have a car purchased for him, I thought I'd interject a personal observation. At least in my experience, the kids I've known (both as peers when I was putting myself through college and as students when I taught them) who had "skin in the game" in their post-high-school education, i.e., were paying their own way, almost always worked harder and were more appreciative of the opportunities they had than the kids who were gifted with a college education on Mom and Dad's dime. The same is GENERALLY true of young car owners; young people who work, scrimp, save, and eventually buy their own car TYPICALLY care for the car more and drive it in a manner that won't damage it... thereby, although maybe not in a young person's radar as much as we'd like, decreasing the chance of damaging those around him or her,too.

It's not that it's a BAD thing to receive a gift of a car at a young age; I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, often, it is a BETTER thing to have worked, saved, and bought your first good car. Bringing a beater back to life w/ your Dad or mechanically inclined Mom is a great introduction to car ownership; the youth may not have any financial skin in the game, but will have some serious hours of physical labor, hard-won bruised hands and knuckles, and increased knowledge and appreciation for the many mechanical and electronic systems that make up a vehicle. Win, win, and win.

I think that's the point, other than jealousy, that some are trying to make. But, yeah, to be honest, I'm way jealous, too. I am a flawed human being..

Best to all.. drive safe, Shawnie, and enjoy a long, productive life, my friend.

Barry

[KR-S]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Not just you it is every young guy that gets jumped if they even hint that somebody is helping them get the car. It isn't like it is a Ferrari, Corvette or something. It is an inexpensive, quasi sports car. Why is it OK for your parents to buy you a 5 year old Corolla or something but one of these is such a big deal? It truly baffles me.

I think it's because kids act more entitled and take sports cars such as the twins for granted instead of actually appreciating the things parents give them, although this is still true with teenagers who actually do pay for their own car.

[shawnie]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Shawnie,

You DO sound like an intelligent, level-headed, mature, grateful youth, and I commend you for it. The following is not directed at you personally.. just some more of my signature sweeping generalizations.

Tcoat, while I haven't been one of the folks here who've denigrated Shawnie for having the good fortune to have a car purchased for him, I thought I'd interject a personal observation. At least in my experience, the kids I've known (both as peers when I was putting myself through college and as students when I taught them) who had "skin in the game" in their post-high-school education, i.e., were paying their own way, almost always worked harder and were more appreciative of the opportunities they had than the kids who were gifted with a college education on Mom and Dad's dime. The same is GENERALLY true of young car owners; young people who work, scrimp, save, and eventually buy their own car TYPICALLY care for the car more and drive it in a manner that won't damage it... thereby, although maybe not in a young person's radar as much as we'd like, decreasing the chance of damaging those around him or her,too.

It's not that it's a BAD thing to receive a gift of a car at a young age; I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, often, it is a BETTER thing to have worked, saved, and bought your first good car. Bringing a beater back to life w/ your Dad or mechanically inclined Mom is a great introduction to car ownership; the youth may not have any financial skin in the game, but will have some serious hours of physical labor, hard-won bruised hands and knuckles, and increased knowledge and appreciation for the many mechanical and electronic systems that make up a vehicle. Win, win, and win.

I think that's the point, other than jealousy, that some are trying to make. But, yeah, to be honest, I'm way jealous, too. I am a flawed human being..

Best to all.. drive safe, Shawnie, and enjoy a long, productive life, my friend.

Barry

I definitely understand the sentiment, I mean it makes sense that someone who has to work for what they get would take better care of it, due to the increased sense of worth that they acquire because of said work. However I have worked really hard for what I've got, just not in the sense of the word that you are talking about. I brought this up earlier in the thread but this car is being given to me mostly because of the scholarships I've received. Since my tuition for college is going to be completely free, the extra money is going to this awesome car.

Also my father made his money through his own business, he owns a mechanic shop. So you can bet your ass that I'll be helping with every bit of my car that is damaged at any point :P.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Shawnie,

You DO sound like an intelligent, level-headed, mature, grateful youth, and I commend you for it. The following is not directed at you personally.. just some more of my signature sweeping generalizations.

Tcoat, while I haven't been one of the folks here who've denigrated Shawnie for having the good fortune to have a car purchased for him, I thought I'd interject a personal observation. At least in my experience, the kids I've known (both as peers when I was putting myself through college and as students when I taught them) who had "skin in the game" in their post-high-school education, i.e., were paying their own way, almost always worked harder and were more appreciative of the opportunities they had than the kids who were gifted with a college education on Mom and Dad's dime. The same is GENERALLY true of young car owners; young people who work, scrimp, save, and eventually buy their own car TYPICALLY care for the car more and drive it in a manner that won't damage it... thereby, although maybe not in a young person's radar as much as we'd like, decreasing the chance of damaging those around him or her,too.

It's not that it's a BAD thing to receive a gift of a car at a young age; I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, often, it is a BETTER thing to have worked, saved, and bought your first good car. Bringing a beater back to life w/ your Dad or mechanically inclined Mom is a great introduction to car ownership; the youth may not have any financial skin in the game, but will have some serious hours of physical labor, hard-won bruised hands and knuckles, and increased knowledge and appreciation for the many mechanical and electronic systems that make up a vehicle. Win, win, and win.

I think that's the point, other than jealousy, that some are trying to make. But, yeah, to be honest, I'm way jealous, too. I am a flawed human being..

Best to all.. drive safe, Shawnie, and enjoy a long, productive life, my friend.

Barry

Counterpoint only, do not read as angry!
I have know some of both the groups you discuss and although it is common to stereotype the given things vs the worked for crowd I have found that the reality is that the difference isn't as big as perceived. I have known people that had their schooling paid for that worked very hard and ones that paid themselves that just skated by. Same with car owners. Some will work hard to get it and then beat the crap outta it and others have it given and it is their baby.
As far as the working on the car as a fond memory and learning/growth experience goes that again can go both ways. Some parents have zero interest on working on cars. I know this is an enthusiast site filled will people that love cars but to most of the population a car is just transportation and they have never even touched a tool much less taught their children. To expect everybody to have such great experiences is just not a real life situation. Frankly working on cars with my father was a lesson in abject terror and there are no fond memories of the experiences.
I guess what I am saying is that everybody can not take their past and apply it across the board and expect others to share the same experiences. We are all different and criticizing others because that is not what happened for us is not reasonable nor fair.

[STZ]

Originally Posted by shawnie

I definitely understand the sentiment, I mean it makes sense that someone who has to work for what they get would take better care of it, due to the increased sense of worth that they acquire because of said work. However I have worked really hard for what I've got, just not in the sense of the word that you are talking about. I brought this up earlier in the thread but this car is being given to me mostly because of the scholarships I've received. Since my tuition for college is going to be completely free, the extra money is going to this awesome car.

Also my father made his money through his own business, he owns a mechanic shop. So you can bet your ass that I'll be helping with every bit of my car that is damaged at any point :P.

So fuck all that shit for now.

What's your current thoughts on the situation now that you've read some?

[ollie]

Young men do stupid things, older men do stupid things! In my opinion hard work is hard work and your father TRUSTS! you. Be save enjoy the ride.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

....We are all different and criticizing others because that is not what happened for us is not reasonable nor fair.

The points you made prior to the last part of your post quoted above are all not only valid but not even debatable. No arguments at all from me, except maybe with your last sentence only because it seems to imply that I was critical, unreasonable, and unfair.

I'll have to go back and reread my two posts (if I can stand it), but I'm pretty sure I didn't criticize anyone, nor did I suggest in anyway that we are all alike. By capitalizing the words "GENERALLY," "BAD," and "TYPICALLY," and by stating that I was about to make some more of my "signature sweeping generalizations," I was hoping to make it clear that I wasn't stating that everything I was about to postulate would hold true in every case; obviously it does not, and, as you too have experienced, T, I've seen many exceptions to the statements I made. However, that doesn't change the fact that the majority of my observations confirm the generalizations I made. AND.. as you typed.. I, too, am definitely not replying in anger or a retaliatory mode. I get and appreciate your point.

Thanks.. Oh, and Shawmie... maintenance, my friend, MAINTENANCE. Please don't wait until you damage your car or something breaks to turn a wrench. If you haven't up until now, an oil and filter change is not only easy, but almost fun on this car and a great place to start, especially if your Dad is a mechanic and is willing to talk you through it. Do that every 3000 miles, and your car will repay you a zillion times over. Read the scheduled maintenance in your owner's manual, and adhere to it; almost ALL of it is within the ability of a dedicated owner with the desire to learn.

Why do your own maintenance if you can pay someone else to do it and you don't enjoy doing it? Well, besides gaining real knowledge about your car, you'll know it was done RIGHT if you take your time. But, "Barry," you say..."The dealership would do a much better job than I would, wouldn't it?" You'd think so..

A few weeks ago, I took my new-to-me 2013 FR-S into the dealership for it's first NYS inspection. While it was there, I asked them to check for an oil leak, as I always smelled a burning oil smell when sitting stationary at idle after driving for a while. They did their "Multi-Point Inspection," complete with official-looking printout of the results; the car was PERFECT in their eyes, although they noted an appropriate and still safe amount of rear brake pad wear. No oil leaks, they proudly proclaimed. I drove the 20 miles home, and smelled the burning oil smell in my driveway again. Pulled out my trusty flashlight, and sure enough, there was an obvious visible leak at the cam coverplate. It's been discussed on this forum quite a bit. This was not a small microscopic stain; the leak covered the bottom 1/4 of the plate and was staining the exhaust manifold or cover. No way you could miss it if you truly looked.

Sooo.. I called the dealership and explained exactly what and where the problem was. I was going to fix it myself (and use a Raceseng aluminum plate) as it's a REALLY easy fix, but wanted to let them know in advance so they didn't pull any warranty voiding stunts in the future. They, of course, immediately told me that it would definitely void my warranty. I then, very nicely (they ARE very nice at this dealership.. very pleasant, friendly people) informed them of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act of 1975. They became much more cooperative. I sent them documentation detailing the known coverplate issue, pictures of the Raceseng improved part, and a clip showing someone else removing the factory plate and showing the failed sealant. The service manager viewed all of that, concurred with the superiority of the Raceseng part, and contacted his regional supervisor to get permission to install the part. He, of course, was denied permission; Toyota shops MUST only use Toyota parts. I get that, and expected it. Just to keep everyone happy, I decided to just save the Raceseng plate and have the dealership perform the work under warranty. If (When) it fails again, the service manager said he'd push harder, and even suggest to the manufacturers that they incorporate the improved part design in the future.

Ok... fine. I arrive at my appointment at 9AM on Friday. At about 10:30 (?!?!?... it's literally a 15 minute job, plus some time to let the RTV cure), the service manager comes to get me, looking concerned. He tells me that it looks like it's going to a bigger job than he thought; the coverplate leak is behind a heat shield, and there's a good amount of disassembly they'll have to do. I looked confused and asked them to show me. We went out to the shop where a very young tech had my car up on a lift. With grave concern they pointed out a bit of grime along a seam at a low spot, and showed me how difficult it would be to get to. I was amazed. I asked them if they knew what and where the cam coverplate was? The usual foot shuffling and downward cast eyes were really the only answer. I had them put the car back on the ground, then showed them it's location and the obvious signs of leakage. OHhhhhhhh.... that! The grime at the bottom was most likely just this leak finding the lowest point on the engine. I suggested that they take the plate off, reseal it, clean up the small spot on the seam at the bottom of the engine, and then I'd drive it and we can check it again in a few weeks to see if the coverplate repair had held AND if the low spot was just runoff or if it was, indeed, another leak. They liked that idea.

An hour later, my car was ready. So far it's holding, but there's so much black RTV around that plate that it looks like they took a caulking gun with a 3/8" opening cut in the tip and put GOBS around the outside. I'm sure they did take the plate off and apply the RTV where it's supposed to go, but I sure would have done a neater job.

I know it sounds like I'm ragging on the dealership, but I'm not. All of our discussions were amicable, and they did the right thing as best they could. HOWEVER... the old saying, "if you want it done right, do it yourself," would still seem to be VERY appropriate.

Long story to illustrate my point. Hope it was helpful.

Best to you all!

Barry

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

...Frankly working on cars with my father was a lesson in abject terror and there are no fond memories of the experiences....

AND.. I'm sorry I glossed over this. Reading that was rough and heart-breaking, and I feel awful that you had that experience. As evidenced by your demeanor and helpfulness here on this forum, you've shown that you were able to take an example of how NOT to do things and how NOT to treat people, and turned it into something positive. Kudos.

Barry

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

The points you made prior to the last part of your post quoted above are all not only valid but not even debatable. No arguments at all from me, except maybe with your last sentence only because it seems to imply that I was critical, unreasonable, and unfair.


Barry

Nope wasn't you. I was also speaking generally to all the people.

[shawnie]

Originally Posted by STZ

So fuck all that shit for now.

What's your current thoughts on the situation now that you've read some?

Well the main reason I made this post was more along the lines of "is a BRZ okay for an inexperienced driver". In other words, does that car itself pose a greater inherent risk to me than any other car? Although most of the responses here have been more along the lines of "you're young and you'll be stupid" (which I understand the sentiment, but I think I'll respect the car enough not to be stupid) there are quite a few that addressed what I was really trying to figure out, and it seems as though the car itself is pretty safe for new drivers so I think I will get it.

Hopefully the Hyperblue one.

[Alltezza]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Why do so many feel the need to harass somebody because of who is buying their car?
So what if their father is buying it? What does it matter that they don't pay for it themselves?
"When I was your age..., "Nobody ever bought me anything, I worked for it" and "I had a POS for a first car and I am a better person for it" comments just amuse me. Woe is me I had to buy my own car and everybody else should too.
There are people with money that buy their kids things and nobody should care.
End of story.

Well to be honest life is unfair and it sucks I'm not gonna lie I'm hatin on him too lol. Just like that one kid in my high school class a while back got a damn brand new G35 for christmas as his first car. When I was lucky enough to get a 98 Accord with 320K miles on it as a grad gift. And now i see this kid here talking about getting a BRZ as his first car because daddys paying for it while I had to pay for it myself. Damn man must be nice lol yeah I'm hatin man not gonna lie or hide it.

Regardless hope the OP enjoys the car and sees it as an open platform with A LOT OF ROOM to grow instead of seeing it as an underpowered all show no go kind of thing.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by shawnie

Well the main reason I made this post was more along the lines of "is a BRZ okay for an inexperienced driver". In other words, does that car itself pose a greater inherent risk to me than any other car? Although most of the responses here have been more along the lines of "you're young and you'll be stupid" (which I understand the sentiment, but I think I'll respect the car enough not to be stupid) there are quite a few that addressed what I was really trying to figure out, and it seems as though the car itself is pretty safe for new drivers so I think I will get it.

Hopefully the Hyperblue one.

where do you live? look into a car control class, like NASA: http://nasacarcontrol.org/

It's not like the car is a viper or something and will try to kill you all the time, but rwd can accentuate a lot of the errors that new drivers make. The twins were designed to be easy to control, but you still have to know what controlling it entails.

Among passenger vehicle drivers ages 16-19 involved in fatal crashes in 2013, 47 percent were involved in single-vehicle crashes. This was higher than for drivers ages 25 and older (38 percent).

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/te...acts/teenagers

[exE36M3]

FWIW, I'm a 45 year old dad of two. I come from BMWs and Miatas. Heck I even carry around a BMW Car Club of America card in my wallet (going 20 years now).

Per the *original* post, I think the BRZ is a pretty good first sports car. A few reasons...

1. Incredible handling versus power - the BRZ (NOT THE FRS) let's you make small mistakes and doesn't punish you for it. Cars like this are the Lotus', Miatas, BMWs (3 series from 80s-90), heck even the Civics, RSXs, Integras. It's a great learning platform because you can explore/push the cars limits without killing yourself. (Caveat - do *explore* in an open parking lot or auto-cross or performance school, don't do this on some public road.)

2. Subaru/Japanese build quality - A lot of kids grow never knowing what this means but let me tell you, from the 70s to the 90s, the Japanese owned anything that could be made. Especially cars. There's a reason why there are SOOO many Japanese cars still on the road 20 years later. The current batch of Japanese cars can be iffy as they are trying to use domestic parts suppliers to abate import taxes. Sadly, it's killed the reliability of most newer Japanese cars. HOWEVER, the Subaru is all Japanese (as is Mazda) and if you look at the most reliable cars and sales numbers... this helps explain why.

And build quality is what keeps long-term maintenance to a minimum.
If this means anything, my 7-year gold warranty from Subaru was only $900.
The average drive up repair in NorCal is $500-$1000. Subuaru must REALLY trust their cars if they can pull that kind of extended warranty for that cheap. (My GMC Acadia was $2500 for only 4 years in comparison).

3. You can still work on it yourself - The BRZ has some electronics, some software, some complexities, but it's not so sophisticated you can't pull suspension, brakes, intake, headers, driveline, etc. All the stuff guys like to do to their cars or just maintenance, you can do without a trip to the dealer for "resets" or a special software tool.


My kid is a freshman in high school. She'll be learning how to drive a stick in the BRZ. And as soon as she's got her license, she's doing the BMW club Street Survival Schools and Car Control Clinics and track days... in the BRZ.

By the time she's old enough and has money enough to get her first M3, she will destroy the boys who's last performance training was Driver Ed... because she's gonna learn to drive the right way.

So as a dad, I'd tell your dad the BRZ is a good choice.
Put a performance school #1 on your "upgrade" list before anything like new suspension, spoilers, etc. The skills you will pick-up will follow-you up to when you buy your first Porsche or Vette.

Best wishes my man. Enjoy!

[bcj]

Originally Posted by shawnie

is a BRZ okay for an inexperienced driver"

Concisely; yes.

There.

The general consensus is that the twins perform well in real world accidents.