VW US recall over emissions test cheating

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

My opinion is that it is too late to change the damage that climate change will cause. That is, I think we are past the tipping point at which we will enter increasing temperatures for the foreseeable future. The tundra permafrost has already starting melting and once that methane is released we are stuffed.

I hope you are wrong...but I don't think you are.

Though, as humans our timeline is so short vs planetary timelines.

Lets say this process takes 1000 years...

To the Earth, that 1000 years is the blink of an eye. To humans, it would represent roughly 5 times as long as the United States has been a country.

Heck, say this process takes a million years...still a short period of time for Earth, but unimaginable for us.

Also back to the 1000 years comment...we just hope "some really smart guy will figure something out by then" yet we invest very little capital funds into our schools in hopes of developing these young future engineers.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Scientific laws are made to be broken. This is why they call it quantum theory, not quantum law.

[pedant]
Sorry, your statement doesn't make sense. You are stating two different things.
"Scientific laws are made to be broken." A then B
"This is why they call it quantum theory, not quantum law." B then C
[/pedant]

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Atropine

I hope you are wrong...but I don't think you are...

... Also back to the 1000 years comment...we just hope "some really smart guy will figure something out by then" yet we invest very little capital funds into our schools in hopes of developing these young future engineers.

This seems the worthwhile track. We may not be able to stop catastrophic climate events from happening (like the thawing of the permafrost), but we can invest to educate those that someday might with future technologies.

Who knows, maybe in 2050 one of our newly lifetime STEM educated grandchildren will invent an air scrubber that traps, extracts and transforms excessive methane and CO2 from the air and turn it into something benign.

"Or" maybe a companies like VW, Koch Industries, and EXXON/Mobil will conclude that it's simply cheaper to go on a decade long media blitz to convince people that climate change is a bunch of hooey and the free market regulates itself in a safe and responsible way. While public agencies like CARB and the EPA are freedom terrorists looking to inact Sharia law on our Judeo-Christian (Native American killing) patriots. Ok, that's not an "Or", those kinds of PR campaigns are pretty much guaranteed to play throughout the fight to not pollute the shit out of our tiny blue marble island in space. Those with half a brain will just fight back harder. Could anything be more important? Well maybe, but that's scientific thinking that leaves the door open for it.

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

This seems the worthwhile track. We may not be able to stop catastrophic climate events from happening (like the thawing of the permafrost), but we can invest to educate those that someday might with future technologies.

Who knows, maybe in 2050 one of our newly lifetime STEM educated grandchildren will invent an air scrubber that traps, extracts and transforms excessive methane and CO2 from the air and turn it into something benign.

"Or" maybe a companies like VW, Koch Industries, and EXXON/Mobil will conclude that it's simply cheaper to go on a decade long media blitz to convince people that climate change is a bunch of hooey and the free market regulates itself in a safe and responsible way. While public agencies like CARB and the EPA are freedom terrorists looking to inact Sharia law on our Judeo-Christian (Native American killing) patriots. Ok, that's not an "Or", those kinds of PR campaigns are pretty much guaranteed to play throughout the fight to not pollute the shit out of our tiny blue marble island in space. Those with half a brain will just fight back harder. Could anything be more important? Well maybe, but that's scientific thinking that leaves the door open for it.

Yeah on that note...people who claim that this did not or does not or will not happen...

Look up how leaded gasoline was used and justified...

[pushrod]

Here's a TL;DR for this thread:

VW cheats on emissions tests!

Well f**k you!

F**k you too bud!

You're not a scientist!

Neither are you!

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Sorry, I take issue with this statement as well.
Yes, there is evidence to support human induced climate change but I am not sure it is "proven" beyond all doubt.

There is a big misunderstanding about this topic and you hit it right there.


There is absolutely no question about global warming.
It is widely accepted (except among the republicans) among scientists.


The question is : IS the global warming caused by humans (i.e. Anthropogenic global warming).


There are many forcing functions, the sun is the biggest one.
Are we positive that the sun hasn't started putting out just 0.01% more heat in the last 50 years?
Hard to be sure because we have only had spacecraft for about that long monitoring it.
And it is hard to compare datasets because the instruments that record that data are not all the same.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by stugray

There is a big misunderstanding about this topic and you hit it right there.


There is absolutely no question about global warming.
It is widely accepted (except among the republicans) among scientists.


The question is : IS the global warming caused by humans (i.e. Anthropogenic global warming).


There are many forcing functions, the sun is the biggest one.
Are we positive that the sun hasn't started putting out just 0.01% more heat in the last 50 years?
Hard to be sure because we have only had spacecraft for about that long monitoring it.
And it is hard to compare datasets because the instruments that record that data are not all the same.

It doesn't help that there is a pile of conflicting information poured out on a regular basis. Different political factions, environmental groups, extremists and Joe with a keyboard and internet access all contribute their version of the facts with the strong probability that their respective opinions colour the statements more than any scientific fact.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Mr.ac

I lived in la when it was brown haze days. Smog standards didn't help. What did help was the cash for clunkers program. Everyone got rid of their 60's and 70's pos cars for newer cars.
I remember my dad got rid of his old pos Buick station wagon for a nice '83 Volvo wagon.

So your dad got rid of an old Buick and bought a 26 year old Volvo to replace it? Are you talking about the national cash for clunkers that Obama backed that enthusiast now blame him for eradicating a lot of old classics?


to the OP and comments following it: I am not a huge fan of the EPA and some of their regulations but to say that car lovers have it better in Europe is a little short sighted. In several European countries, if you make mods to your car then you cannot register for street operations. Some of them are even more restrictive than California is. Be careful what you ask for.

[fang_gt86]

Completely irrelevant but oh well. It's Monday and I'm bored..

via Imgflip Meme Maker

[Special_K]

GUYS GUYS GUYS!!!

I'm late to this thread, but holy shit! I just hit thanks on a stugray post, this is huge! Since when is he the bringer of rational discourse?! Am I dreaming? Do we now have a new resident asshole?
...If there was hope for stugray, maybe there's hope for the rest of the world too!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by pushrod

Here's a TL;DR for this thread:

VW cheats on emissions tests!

Well f**k you!

F**k you too bud!

You're not a scientist!

Neither are you!

The fun part is that Stug actually IS a Rocket Scientist (or at least a space engineer which is close enough)

[DAEMANO]

In my eyes the issue with VW isn't so much about whether global warming is caused by man. The issue is about how much toxic pollution we will allow corporations to dump into our air, sea and land. We already know excessive tailpipe emissions are horrible for humans. We also have plenty of examples as to how corporations like BP, Exxon, Union Carbide, GE, and now the formerly benign Volkswagen will happily break the very laws we enact and try to bust regulation that prevents them from dumping toxic crap wherever they like. It's not the EPA and CARB that forced VW to cheat, they chose to as a way to sell more cars. How anyone defends and apologizes for that kind of conduct is mind blowing.

[why?]

Love some rationality. Even NOAA admits they have not seen an actual increase in temperatures in the past couple of decades. And yes, I 100% think any actual changes are because not only the sun, but the cosmic neighborhood we are travelling through. There is nothing we can do to change any of that. We simply do not have enough actual records we can trust to know what happens, and it will take around 1000 years or for us as a species to even start to having a chance.

It would also be nice for a scientist to simply admit that they really have no idea what is going on. Far too many pop scientists or science fans seem to act like humans know everything about everything. We know nearly nothing about how the global climate of our planet works. Every single so called climate model is 50% guesses. When you input bad data you can only get bad results.

Originally Posted by Rampage

So your dad got rid of an old Buick and bought a 26 year old Volvo to replace it? Are you talking about the national cash for clunkers that Obama backed that enthusiast now blame him for eradicating a lot of old classics?


to the OP and comments following it: I am not a huge fan of the EPA and some of their regulations but to say that car lovers have it better in Europe is a little short sighted. In several European countries, if you make mods to your car then you cannot register for street operations. Some of them are even more restrictive than California is. Be careful what you ask for.

You are right about some europeans not being able to mod their cars. However the sulfur content in their gas is much lower than our gas, and that means all these modern diesel engines that get insane gas mileage work wonderful over there, but our gas would destroy those systems in short order. I'm 100% for getting better gas mileage, but right now our regulations are the main roadblock.

No way am I saying other countries do everything right. That is silly. However there are cases where certain countries do things that benefit their citizens, and we should look to adopt those things for our country because it would benefit all of us. Actually allowing modern technology to be able to function is one of those things we should allow.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

In my eyes the issue with VW isn't so much about whether global warming is caused by man. The issue is about how much toxic pollution we will allow corporations to dump into our air, sea and land. We already know excessive tailpipe emissions are horrible for humans. We also have plenty of examples as to how corporations like BP, Exxon, Union Carbide, GE, and now the formerly benign Volkswagen will happily break the very laws we enact and try to bust regulation that prevents them from dumping toxic crap wherever they like. It's not the EPA and CARB that forced VW to cheat, they chose to as a way to sell more cars. How anyone defends and apologizes for that kind of conduct is mind blowing.

Because I don't believe our government is all knowing or always right. When a government regulation is wrong and evil, we should ignore it and fight to change it. We don't enact laws or regulations, unelected clueless morons do. That is why there are so many idiotic alphabet government agencies, they are not accountable to anyone for anything, and our congress has illegally vacated what they were suppose to do and given it to unelected usurpers who have no right doing any of what they are doing.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by why?

Because I don't believe our government is all knowing or always right. When a government regulation is wrong and evil, we should ignore it and fight to change it. We don't enact laws or regulations, unelected clueless morons do. That is why there are so many idiotic alphabet government agencies, they are not accountable to anyone for anything, and our congress has illegally vacated what they were suppose to do and given it to unelected usurpers who have no right doing any of what they are doing.

Ok look. The government is not some mysterious "evil" faction oppressing you. Our government is a body of people (representatives), chosen by us, to represent us. Whomever chooses to participate most actively in the selection of those representatives gets their agenda represented best. In our case, that has been the wealthy. When you stop divorcing yourself from the responsibility of participation in the civic process by speaking of the government as "them", you will then have taken a more productive step to advancing your agenda.

You are part of the process of enacting laws and regulations. The people you have either chosen or allowed to be chosen don't represent your beliefs. Now comes the part where you participate and organize to get people elected that do represent your beliefs. This works.

We have so many "idiotic alphabet agencies" because a large populace has so many things that need to be taken care of and they need names. What would you call them instead? Your quote sounds like a "talking point". You call them idiotic, but I have a feeling you have very little understanding of what they do. Yes, those agencies are accountable to the representatives we have chosen to oversee them. If those representatives are doing a bad job, then get involved in the process and have new representatives elected that you think will do better.

Who are these non-elected usurpers you're talking about? Are you talking about corporations or some wicked cabal?