Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Maybe they just liked how the BRZ felt. Or its better top end. Or its seating position. Its controls layout. Steering ratio. Flatter ride. Drift-friendly setup. Longer wheelbase. Cargo space. 2+2 (small, but good in a pinch or for kids). Fixed roof (security, sound insulation). Aftermarket (more than the ND, not the Miata in general).

So I went back and looked over the article. I wasn't sure at first why the editors preferred the BRZ, but what do you know, it's actually in there. I must have read it too quickly the first time. According to what they wrote, Sandoval would pick the BRZ because she likes the seating position and ergonomics better.

Five-feet-of-fun Sandoval finds the BRZ's cockpit an ideal fit that compounds the confidence inspired by the chassis' responsive steering and flat cornering. ... While admitting she'd personally buy the better fitting BRZ, she notes that "it's like a distressed leather jacket whereas the more refined Miata is a fine merino wool sport coat."

And Lago would pick the BRZ because he prefers it as a track car.

Lago proclaims the BRZ his preferred track car ... Associate road test editor Carlos Lago reckons the BRZ's "chassis accepts corrections more readily than the Miata's and feels a bit more flexible overall," adding that the MX-5's "roll and lack of power mean you need to be correct with your initial steering input."

So there you have it. One prefers the BRZ because the cabin fits her better, and the other would choose the BRZ because he prefers the handling on the track.

[Entroper]

Wow, this was going well for a while, but it sure blew up today.

My view on the "fairness" of the comparison is that they compared the highest-performance version of the ND to the highest-performance version of the BRZ. The fact that, for the BRZ, the top trim doesn't gain any performance over the base model, is not Mazda's fault. As others have said, the price was clearly stated, so I don't have a problem with MT's presentation.

I also don't think the BBSs and Brembos added a ton of performance. Nor do I think they're likely worth the $3400 -- I agree with MT on that point. As I said in the thread opener, I think tires played the biggest role (certainly more than the ND's trim level), and the Primacy HPs aren't Mazda's fault, either.

Really, at the end of the day, the lap times are in the same ballpark, and I don't think it matters which one is faster. When I'm driving my NB at Summit Point, I'm not even timing my laps, just bombing around enjoying the chassis.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

You said the Miata has no aftermarket. That's flat out wrong. The aftermarket isn't 240sx or BRZ/FR-S big, but it's not far off. Probably about the same as the S2000, RX7, etc.... It is very popular for autocross, and there are companies like Exomotive building full tube frame chassis for the NA/NB. It's a pretty big aftermarket compared to a lot of cars.

nope I never said there is no aftermarket support, I said lack of the support comparing both cars.. hence the title "2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ", it can be changed in the future but changes are slim to none if you ask me..

comparing Miata to the S2K would be a big mistake because it's nowhere near close to the popularity and Hondas were always considered tuner's cars..

even if you compare the sole sale figures that still doesn't tell us anything because FT86, S2K and WRX/STI, Evo get a lot more attention from younger buyers, whereas Miatas (at least the newer ones) mostly owned buy adults who like to enjoy the convertible, reliable car.. it's fun afterall

Do you know how many turbo kits available for the outgoing NC Miata? there were only two and both had their quirks and this is after 9 years of the current model, and compare that to the FT86, I gave up counting .. so all things being equal it might be safe to say "FT86 is the fastest growing, widely accepted Japanese sport cars in the history".. I might be wrong though but it sure looks like it

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Entroper

I also don't think the BBKs and Brembos added a ton of performance. Nor do I think they're likely worth the $3400 -- I agree with MT on that point. As I said in the thread opener, I think tires played the biggest role (certainly more than the ND's trim level), and the Primacy HPs aren't Mazda's fault, either.

I am pretty sure they added some performance but with that kind of money I would opt for a kit with 2 piece rotors and possibly some wider Enkeis

[thill]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

So I went back and looked over the article. I wasn't sure at first why the editors preferred the BRZ, but what do you know, it's actually in there. I must have read it too quickly the first time. According to what they wrote, Sandoval would pick the BRZ because she likes the seating position and ergonomics better.



And Lago would pick the BRZ because he prefers it as a track car.



So there you have it. One prefers the BRZ because the cabin fits her better, and the other would choose the BRZ because he prefers the handling on the track.

Nicely done. These guys are also in sunny California where buying a ragtop is much easier than if you live in Minnesota where the BRZ/FR-S makes the decision a lot harder.

I cannot wait to drive the new MX-5. I think it is great time to be a car enthusiast with all these great new cars out. Hopefully it will put pressure on Toyobaru to step up their game even more. I also hope the MX-5 is a success as Mazda cannot afford for it not to be.

[glamcem]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=3403

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by thill

Nicely done. These guys are also in sunny California where buying a ragtop is much easier than if you live in Minnesota where the BRZ/FR-S makes the decision a lot harder.

I cannot wait to drive the new MX-5. I think it is great time to be a car enthusiast with all these great new cars out. Hopefully it will put pressure on Toyobaru to step up their game even more. I also hope the MX-5 is a success as Mazda cannot afford for it not to be.

Same here, can't wait to drive the new Miata. I really applaud Mazda for capturing the spirit (and weight) of the original NA Miata and combining it with a bigger engine, modern interior, and current-day safety standards. That couldn't have been easy to do.

[JS + BRZ]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Same here, can't wait to drive the new Miata. I really applaud Mazda for capturing the spirit (and weight) of the original NA Miata and combining it with a bigger engine, modern interior, and current-day safety standards. That couldn't have been easy to do.

This.

[thill]

Especially when you consider that Toyota and Subaru combined sold like 3 million cars in North America last year and Mazda sold 300K. Mazda has really been putting our some great cars lately, although I do wish they would bring back something like a Speed3, Speed6, or RX-8 equivalent too.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by DohcTor

The 2005 Scion tC is faster than the twins. Almost anything is lol

Maybe if the twins driver is asleep...

Originally Posted by strat61caster

tl;dr test isn't biased (aside from admitted human preference in said article), trim differences are noted in the article, nobody should base their views on one source, article is fine if a bit hamfisted.

From the Motortrend article:



Again, very clear to me what the difference in trims were even with no background knowledge in conjunction with page three which clearly states the trim levels and prices of each package, the only thing not mentioned is the LSD option on the Miata and they're wrong about the Bilstein's being an option on the Club trim. The price difference will shake out once people take the time to look away from the shiny red paint, as you put it it's a $26.5k BRZ (don't forget delivery fees) with doodads, and I'll claim it's a $29.5k Miata with doodads. The Bilstein's come standard on the Club trim at $29.5k, the wheels and brake kit save a whopping 10 lbs total, and those Bridgestone S001's are hardly leaps and bounds ahead of the Michelin's. I really can't get on board with this being called an unfair or biased comparison. It's not like Mazda sent out cars with slicks or custom suspension a la Ferrari, the price differential is right there, the trim levels are listed out in the open.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ta/brakes.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ub-test-review

I don't see the point in hot lapping the Miata without the LSD to get a $26k comparison, benchracing at it's finest imo, irrelevant. If you have $26k and want the best new track car possible, save up the extra $3k if the Miata ticks the right boxes, trim level is not a game changing factor here, we're not talking about a Mustang V6 vs V8.

They get paid for snarky banter, otherwise nobody would comment and everyone would say "Yup, those are the laptimes and figures along with some basic impressions". Which has been ardently covered in these responses already.

It's not like they shitcanned the BRZ or that it's some ridiculous comparison when we regularly link comparisons to Cayman's and 370Z's and S2000's and RX-8's because they show the strengths of the 86. This showcases the strengths of the Miata due to it's weight

As for the responses in this thread, seems to me it's half 'fuck yeah the new Miata is awesome' and half butthurt from fanboi's trying to talk down the Miata's advantage coming out of this single review. I guess you can tell which camp I fall into.

Go ahead, take the hypothetical $3k price difference and put hypothetical tires and brakes and alignment on the 86. It doesn't matter. They're damn close and based on what Motortrend observed, the Miata edges out the BRZ from the factory for a couple grand more.

The proper comparison would have been to a BRZ tS, but that's not available here (yet). Bilstein shocks, Brembo brakes, likely lighter wheels, and stickier rubber is a hell of an upgrade. Saving "maybe 10 lbs" is a hell of a lot when it's unsprung weight, and it could also be rotating weight.


Hell, the Bilsteins alone could have a massive hand in all this cause it's probably keeping the body roll down at least a bit.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

For next generation of the FRS/BRZ I hope Toyobaru could drop 150-200 lbs more while giving us a FA20 with 15hp/10tq more or a FA22 or something.

Well, if things go the way I think they will, the STI will likely be getting a 2.5L version of the FA engine. I don't see them keeping the ancient EJ for much longer considering the performance of the FA20.


What that means in the long run for the twins I don't know. There is potential there though.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

LSD and Bilstein's are part of the Club package, that is the track oriented Miata offering and at $29.5k it is more expensive than the Toyobaru and you are correct, it is likely a significant increase in performance over the base ~$25k model.

The ~$3.4k Brembo package comes with brakes and BBS wheels, that is the package I am arguing is not a substantial performance upgrade, it's what pushes the Miata past the $32k mark. I don't think the 10 lbs weight reduction and added brake cooling add a significant performance advantage, it does add some performance no doubt, but not enough to reduce the 1.3 second gap significantly.

I do not know the tires offered on the Base vs. Club vs. Brembo package, they are listed as 205/45/17 Bridgestone S001's for MotorTrend's as tested, 280 treadwear to the HP Primacy's 340 treadwear (in 215/45/17). Both tires are not performance oriented imo, both tires will be replaced before serious hotlapping occurs. As I posted earlier, everybody points to rubber as an easy out, but in this case it's not like we're comparing performance tires to non-performance tires, they're both classed as 'sporty summer tires'.

Brakes allow you to dive into corners faster and brake later. It's definitely a performance advantage to someone like Pobst as he'll be drive the car at 10/10ths and taking advantage of such things.


Also, treadwear is ONLY comparable within the same brand. There isn't a standard across tire brands for treadwear. Also, the Potenza's are a maximum performance summer tire while the Primacies are first and foremost a low rolling resistance tire that have been tuned for better performance. They're worlds apart.

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Same here, can't wait to drive the new Miata. I really applaud Mazda for capturing the spirit (and weight) of the original NA Miata and combining it with a bigger engine, modern interior, and current-day safety standards. That couldn't have been easy to do.

Safety standards have always been a bit....lax with the Miata. They've never been evaluated by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety or the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. So ultimately, we really just don't know.


Of course, the twins were top safety picks in comparison...

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Safety standards have always been a bit....lax with the Miata. They've never been evaluated by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety or the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. So ultimately, we really just don't know.


Of course, the twins were top safety picks in comparison...

Also want to add, proper roll bar is a must with any convertible and many organizations mandates that ( still would get even if they didn't) and it was the first ever mod I've done on my Miata, that's something to consider for those who are planning to take them to the track

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Also want to add, proper roll bar is a must with any convertible and many organizations mandates that ( still would get even if they didn't) and it was the first ever mod I've done on my Miata, that's something to consider for those who are planning to take them to the track

Yep, my mom has had two (a '95 and she still has her '00) and they both had Hard Dog roll bars when we bought them. If they didn't have them, I would have added them because of how effective they are.


If she didn't love convertables I'd get her into something else. But there really isn't another replacement for the Miata (well, outside of the S2000, but at well over double the price it's really not that much more car)

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Yep, my mom has had two (a '95 and she still has her '00) and they both had Hard Dog roll bars when we bought them. If they didn't have them, I would have added them because of how effective they are.


If she didn't love convertables I'd get her into something else. But there really isn't another replacement for the Miata (well, outside of the S2000, but at well over double the price it's really not that much more car)

exactly, S2K s are nice but they also don't feel like a Miata and cost a lot more, also Miata really feels like a toy, go-kart like

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by glamcem

exactly what part you find ridiculous? just because you own a Miata doesn't/shouldn't necessarily mean you get offended when you hear a criticism, can't we just stop being a fanboi? Like I said I owned both Miata and BRZ (and many other cars), I can't hide the shortcomings of the BRZ/FRS simply put FA20 engine sucks in stock form..oh wait a minute? what did I just say??



cool meme, oh and screen name

Are you joking? of course I have and trust me this is not the first time I am reading an article about a Miata,

I owned and modified one, my best friend and his brother also have one with the Kraftwerks kit so we get a chance to compare both cars, I know what it takes to install mods, drive at the street and track, get datalogs, have tons of empirical data to support my claims ..so unless you didn't get a chance to do the same, I would advise you to read more (ahem from people who can)..

and you're one of the few who look at these cars and compare the 0-60 mph,
times





Do you have any idea what's involved to the same with a Miata? yeah, exactly what I thought



hahaha, ok




No, at least that's not the case for the NC Miatas, then again one of the main reasons I switched to a BRZ is because of the lack of the community and aftermarket support..

AGAIN MIATAS are great cars and the new Miata will be even better same cannot be said for the aftermarket/vendor support.. there are only a few Vendors or makers for the Miatas and they solely work on the older Miatas, do you know how many FI alternatives exist for NC miata?



The car on the left is my Miata (exhaust, roll bars ..etc)

i find it ridiculous that you think the miata has no aftermarket or community. i own a brz by the way.