Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

My post specifically mentioned to considering aftermarket and the first thing you type is modding your twin would make it better?

Yeah because comparing two stock entry level sports cars is like comparing stater bros non-fat milk to albertsons non-fat milk. One may taste slightly better, but they're still both non-fat milk and taste like shitty, milky white water.

If you could turn one of them into 2%, then you can say one is better than the other.

Right now, you can turn the twins into 2% or even whole milk, the miata, not so much.

Jaden

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Yeah because caompring two stock entry level sports cars is like comparing stater bros non-fat milk to albertsons non-fat milk. One may taste slightly better, but they're still both non-fat milk and taste like shitty, milky white water.

If you could turn one of them into 2%, then you can say one is better than the other.

Right now, you can turn the twins into 2% or even whole milk, the miata, not so much.

Jaden

And the Miata has never had aftermarket support in the past, so why would it now?

Stupid argument is stupid.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by thill

Motor Trend has some explaining to do:

It's just really poorly written. The Mazda is the better car yet two of the three editors would buy the BRZ over the Miata? Why? Because it is more practical? Because they prefer the driving dynamics more?

Very odd. It almost feels like they were told to pick the Mazda as the winner no matter what.

Maybe they just liked how the BRZ felt. Or its better top end. Or its seating position. Its controls layout. Steering ratio. Flatter ride. Drift-friendly setup. Longer wheelbase. Cargo space. 2+2 (small, but good in a pinch or for kids). Fixed roof (security, sound insulation). Aftermarket (more than the ND, not the Miata in general).

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

The real problem with this test for me is that it's subversively biased by the selected trim levels of the test cars. Essentially MT's used its' two Miata owners to compare a heavily performance modded Miata vs. a cosmetic modded BRZ.

{ship}

Sorry but for a flat out performance test, give me a $26,500 base BRZ/FR-S and $6450 in mods and you'd essentially get my car. Which if driven by Randy Pobst would utterly annihilate a base or Club Miata in every performance metric stated in the article and on any track. (0-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad, figure 8, and probably even braking). And yes, my car is still fun and playful, but with a hell of a lot more torque and grip.

I partly agree with you, but they were comparing available (and soon to be available) production versions of the cars. If you're going to go aftermarket, it's only fair to do that with both cars (the ND would likely improve with stiffer suspension).

Anyway, which one was slightly faster is pretty irrelevant in this context. The point of the comparison was simply that the ND can hang with the BRZ on the track, and it's fun. The GTI beat both of them in lap times, braking test, and figure 8. Yet, they wrote this about the GTI:

Originally Posted by motortrend MX5 vs BRZ vs GTI

Then everybody who drove all three cars got out of this one asking what it was doing here. Pobst: "This is probably a very nice street car, but after coming out of two of the best track cars ever made, it's a bloody frustrating experience. The stability control can't be turned all the way off, and it constantly interferes all the way around the racetrack. Coming out of a Miata and a BRZ, it just feels so numb. The steering feels numb, the suspension feels numb, there's this numb understeer. It's quiet and smooth, but it's not a satisfying track car. In the Miata you feel like you're going 1,000 mph—in a good way—but in this car you feel like you're wrestling a hippo."

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Right now, you can turn the twins into 2% or even whole milk, the miata, not so much.

That's because it's a brand new car. Of course there's not going to be any aftermarket yet. However, there's already a large and well-established aftermarket for the Miata in general, so it won't take them very much time at all to pick up the new version and see what fits and what works best. As opposed to our car, whose aftermarket community was built literally from scratch when the car came out. I would bet that in three years' time, the aftermarket for the new Miata will be a lot bigger than ours is now.

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

That's because it's a brand new car. Of course there's not going to be any aftermarket yet. However, there's already a large and well-established aftermarket for the Miata in general, so it won't take them very much time at all to pick up the new version and see what fits and what works best. As opposed to our car, whose aftermarket community was built literally from scratch when the car came out. I would bet that in three years' time, the aftermarket for the new Miata will be a lot bigger than ours is now.

As far as aftermarket that fits in the engine bay.. Lets not get carried away. That 2.0l skyactive has been around a while.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

As far as aftermarket that fits in the engine bay.. Lets not get carried away. That 2.0l skyactive has been around a while.

I think that now that it's in their sports car it'll get more attention. There's not too much money in developing the basic engine for an economy car. If I were a tuning company, I would have started with at least their 2.5, or whatever the higher package Mazda3 engine is.

Either way, comparing the aftermarket for a car that's been around for three years to one for a car that's only just barely coming out is an invalid comparison. Of course one will be bigger than the other.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by fatoni

This is some of the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard on this forum.

exactly what part you find ridiculous? just because you own a Miata doesn't/shouldn't necessarily mean you get offended when you hear a criticism, can't we just stop being a fanboi? Like I said I owned both Miata and BRZ (and many other cars), I can't hide the shortcomings of the BRZ/FRS simply put FA20 engine sucks in stock form..oh wait a minute? what did I just say??

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

cool meme, oh and screen name

Originally Posted by strat61caster

lmao did you read the reviews? It has a different head and lighter flywheel than the 3 and by offering "only 155 hp" they kept the clubsport trim level with bilsteins and an LSD to $28k while knocking nearly 1 second off the NC's (pre-'09) 0-60 time.

Are you joking? of course I have and trust me this is not the first time I am reading an article about a Miata,

I owned and modified one, my best friend and his brother also have one with the Kraftwerks kit so we get a chance to compare both cars, I know what it takes to install mods, drive at the street and track, get datalogs, have tons of empirical data to support my claims ..so unless you didn't get a chance to do the same, I would advise you to read more (ahem from people who can)..

and you're one of the few who look at these cars and compare the 0-60 mph,
times

But the exact same thing was said about the FA20 and it seems to be taking a bolt on supercharger with a whopping 80+ hp increase without skipping a beat and there are hundreds running around with 300+ whp vs. the stock ~170 at best.

Do you have any idea what's involved to the same with a Miata? yeah, exactly what I thought

Solely measuring an engine by peak hp is like picking a wife via shoe size.

hahaha, ok

Originally Posted by Poodles

Wait, what? Miata is the Civic of the convertible world. There's a massive community and aftermarket for them and if you think the engine bay is cramped you need to try working on the car with your hands not your feet...


Though I'm sure you were being sarcastic, right?

No, at least that's not the case for the NC Miatas, then again one of the main reasons I switched to a BRZ is because of the lack of the community and aftermarket support..

AGAIN MIATAS are great cars and the new Miata will be even better same cannot be said for the aftermarket/vendor support.. there are only a few Vendors or makers for the Miatas and they solely work on the older Miatas, do you know how many FI alternatives exist for NC miata?



The car on the left is my Miata (exhaust, roll bars ..etc)

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The ~$3.4k Brembo package comes with brakes and BBS wheels, that is the package I am arguing is not a substantial performance upgrade, it's what pushes the Miata past the $32k mark. I don't think the 10 lbs weight reduction and added brake cooling add a significant performance advantage, it does add some performance no doubt, but not enough to reduce the 1.3 second gap significantly.

[/URL]

dude please stop, seriously

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I owned and modified one, my best friend and his brother also have one with the Kraftwerks kit so we get a chance to compare both cars, I know what it takes to install mods, drive at the street and track, get datalogs, have tons of empirical data to support my claims ..so unless you didn't get a chance to do the same, I would advise you to read more (ahem from people who can)..

and you're one of the few who look at these cars and compare the 0-60 mph,
times

Do you have any idea what's involved to the same with a Miata? yeah, exactly what I thought


hahaha, ok

No, at least that's not the case for the NC Miatas, then again one of the main reasons I switched to a BRZ is because of the lack of the community and aftermarket support..

AGAIN MIATAS are great cars and the new Miata will be even better same cannot be said for the aftermarket/vendor support.. there are only a few Vendors or makers for the Miatas and they solely work on the older Miatas, do you know how many FI alternatives exist for NC miata?

With the background your post makes more sense, but to post bold claims without any context means you're going to get a response, getting your panties in a wad isn't going to win you any friends.

Claiming superiority based on your anonymous experience to anonymous people on the internet doesn't win you any favor, I'll play along with you in this discussion because I think you have valid points and the claims in this post are believable, but your tone is a huge turnoff.

A. You claim the motor is shit compared to the old one, I countered with the most basic measurable metric commonly used, 0-60 times for an idea of how viable this motor is stock. I don't see a problem with this, can you explain yours? By no means am I judging the whole car/engine based on 0-60, as I clearly state, numbers does not a car or engine make. I'd be happy to hear your experience or readings about the 2.0L Skyactiv G in the ND.

B. As far as I can tell nobody knows what it takes to put FI on a Skyactiv G, so no, and likely neither do you.

C. I'm curious if that's a laugh in agreement or disagreement for the peak hp = shoe size in terms of profiling a motor.

D. Nope, never researched heavily into the NC aftermarket, assumed it was similar in strength to the NA, I wouldn't mind hearing you elaborate. I know there's at least a kraftwerks kit now :P

Edit: E. So how much time savings are in 10 lbs. and a brake kit that doesn't fade over one ~1:30 flying lap?

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by glamcem

cool meme, oh and screen name

You said the Miata has no aftermarket. That's flat out wrong. The aftermarket isn't 240sx or BRZ/FR-S big, but it's not far off. Probably about the same as the S2000, RX7, etc.... It is very popular for autocross, and there are companies like Exomotive building full tube frame chassis for the NA/NB. It's a pretty big aftermarket compared to a lot of cars.

[tahdizzle]

this Skyactive engine is not new.

Go to the mazda3 forums and I'm pretty sure you can find out what it takes to turbo this engine :p

10lbs can make a world of difference in the hands of someone like pobst though.

[glamcem]

It's almost impossible to tell what contributes to the overall lap times and what amount even after doing before and after tests because there's a lateral relationship on the data, let's say you shave 10 lbs from rotational mass which is HUGE for a car that weighs only 2300 lbs and more importantly has only 155hp , we still wouldn't be able to tell if we improved our times due to real advantage of the mod or the driver confidence , because one affects the other..unless of course you're a hot shoe like Randy Pobst

I would advise potential buyers to spend more time on searching and reading about the Miata because it may not be ideal for everyone, grass is always greener on the other side..

That being said I can even consider getting one for myself but that decision won't be based on a magazine article or internet hypes or ECHO ,

Imo Miata is a great second car , especially for those who are not planing to mod their cars and like Lago mentioned in his previous article ( see I'm not that far behind the magazine articles lol) , " one is a drivers tool other is a driver toy"

[thill]

Originally Posted by Deslock

Maybe they just liked how the BRZ felt. Or its better top end. Or its seating position. Its controls layout. Steering ratio. Flatter ride. Drift-friendly setup. Longer wheelbase. Cargo space. 2+2 (small, but good in a pinch or for kids). Fixed roof (security, sound insulation). Aftermarket (more than the ND, not the Miata in general).

Yeah exactly my point. It would have been nice if they could have added context to their somewhat contradictory statement.

In no way am I bashing the MX-5 here either, I just hate some of these magazine comparisons and the final results. Even bringing the GTI into the mix makes little sense. It just felt like an afterthought. Hey, let's bring this F-150 into the mix too and see how it hangs with these lightweight sport coupes?

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

With the background your post makes more sense, but to post bold claims without any context means you're going to get a response, getting your panties in a wad isn't going to win you any friends.

Claiming superiority based on your anonymous experience to anonymous people on the internet doesn't win you any favor, I'll play along with you in this discussion because I think you have valid points and the claims in this post are believable, but your tone is a huge turnoff.

you maybe right about my tone, sorry if I offended anyone, but I have to say I don't really care if it wins me any favor also, I was just sharing my experience with both platforms to shed some lights to the common misconceptions many things that look good on paper don't really work on real world scenarios, well at least that the case for me and many other track junkies that I had a chance to interact with

A. You claim the motor is shit compared to the old one, I countered with the most basic measurable metric commonly used, 0-60 times for an idea of how viable this motor is stock. I don't see a problem with this, can you explain yours? By no means am I judging the whole car/engine based on 0-60, as I clearly state, numbers does not a car or engine make. I'd be happy to hear your experience or readings about the 2.0L Skyactiv G in the ND.

I never really said motor is shit, all I am saying is it's not a high revving special Miata Engine like the NC2 and NC3 but more like the NC1 engine offered till 09 (also could rev up to 6800 rpm) FYI, my friend has a 2013 club Miata and his brother has a 2006 NC Miata that 500-600 rpm difference makes a humongous difference,, also, although the older NC Miata shares the Ford engine internals were different so I am not sure about the new one,

B. As far as I can tell nobody knows what it takes to put FI on a Skyactiv G, so no, and likely neither do you.

yes but the numbers are numbers and I have a feeling it would take years to see some aftermarket support on the parts, moto-east and the Good win Racing are the only good sources of support you can get at this point, and will be the same unless the sale figures and the audience changes dramatically

C. I'm curious if that's a laugh in agreement or disagreement for the peak hp = shoe size in terms of profiling a motor.

it's a very basic knowledge, of course I am not really worried about the peak hp, BRZ and Miatas are the last place to look in that department I think, otherwise I would simply keep the Vettes or the Evos, Stis ..etc

D. Nope, never researched heavily into the NC aftermarket, assumed it was similar in strength to the NA, I wouldn't mind hearing you elaborate. I know there's at least a kraftwerks kit now :P

that was my initial thoughts that made me buy a Miata and the exact reason why I made the switch (Miata to BRZ),

Edit: E. So how much time savings are in 10 lbs. and a brake kit that doesn't fade over one ~1:30 flying lap?

like I said 10 lbs is a lot but it's almost impossible to find the exact correlation to the track times even if you do , "correlation doesn't imply causation"..the only way to tell is to hire Randy Pobst and put behind the base and club Miata and perform before and after tests, (possibly compare the 5-10 best lap times with statistical analysis)..I know, it's a bitch to perform a test like that but that's the reality