Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ

[Sideways&Smiling]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Not to mention there's supposed to be an Alfa version of the car with a turbocharger (who knows if they're using the same engine at all though).

Or how much it will cost.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Poodles

Not to mention there's supposed to be an Alfa version of the car with a turbocharger (who knows if they're using the same engine at all though).

Not Alfa, Marccione wanted those to be the pride of Italy having Alfa's built even partially in Japan would contradict that, if it ever comes to fruition it will have a Fiat or Abarth badge. Would not be surprised to see a AR Spyder up against the Z4/Boxster and a Fiat/Abarth/Miata with the 1.4L Multi-Air (~160-170+hp in current trim, 200 doable with tune and effort) poised at the 370Z/Mustang/Camaro low $30k convertible market.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...ased-roadster/

Originally Posted by Poodles

Like riding a fat chick, it's fun until your friends find out. Dear god that thing is ugly and consistently makes the list for ugliest cars ever made for a reason...

lol whatever keeps prices down for me, '01-'02 are commanding well over $40k, 315hp, 3,000 lbs, stiff chassis, M tuning, I6 exhaust note. Like said above, probably the last proper luxury sports car BMW built before they dropped the 'sports'.

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by thill

I love what Mazda did which was to reduce weight and overall size of the car while also reducing power. Pretty gutsy and goes against the grain of what other manufacturers are doing (bigger, heavier, more power, etc). I was skeptical about the power reduction, but the performance of the car speaks for itself and clearly Mazda nailed it.

Goto 4:35 of this video (Mazda Lightweight Sports Anti-Concept / Noncept which is exactly what you said here):

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yauFjNknhSg"]Bob Hall, "Father of the Miata," speaking at Miatas at MRLS 2014 - YouTube[/ame]

[DAEMANO]

The real problem with this test for me is that it's subversively biased by the selected trim levels of the test cars. Essentially MT's used its' two Miata owners to compare a heavily performance modded Miata vs. a cosmetic modded BRZ.

Miata Club is a performance variant with upgraded Bilstein shocks, Summer tires, lightweight BBS wheels, a LSD, a shock tower brace, and some aero bits. A Brembo front BBK is also available and after looking closely at the full res pics, this car is equipped with them. The MSRP is $32,950 - A stock Miata is $29,420

• With all this extra performance equipment the Miata lapped at 1:29.9

BRZ Series Blue is a cosmetic variant with body kit, special paint, interior bits and wheels (same width as stock) with a MSRP of $30,285 - A base BRZ or FR-S is $26,490

• With $3,800.00 wasted on cosmetic mods the BRZ turned it's fastest lap at 1:31.2

The essentially base (from a performance perspective) BRZ was only 1.3 seconds slower than a brand new Club Miata with all the above performance add-ons. Looking at the performance that way the BRZ is indeed the best value of the two. A base BRZ/FR-S, even better.

• A base BRZ or FR-S' MSRP is $6450 less than the 2016 Club Miata tested.

Until this point is acknowledged (which I won't hold my breath over), I'm going to pretty much ignore the performance ranking in this comparison.

Why not test a base Miata vs. a base BRZ/FR-S? Or why not a Club Miata vs a base BRZ/FR-S with MT simply stating that there are no performance variants of the twins widely available in the U.S? Seems to me they're trying to make the price/performance aspect of the comparison look more apples to apples than it really is. I hate that Randy Pobst (a guy most everyone respects) is anywhere near this kind of editorial spin.

* The editor notes they didn't choose an FR-S because the 2013 model's rear end was prone to "twerking like Miley Cyrus". I believe that MT's editors should know that the 2015 FR-S spring rates and shocks have been changed since then for more neutral handling. Was a base FR-S simply too inexpensive to make this comparison look close?

Sorry but for a flat out performance test, give me a $26,500 base BRZ/FR-S and $6450 in mods and you'd essentially get my car. Which if driven by Randy Pobst would utterly annihilate a base or Club Miata in every performance metric stated in the article and on any track. (0-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad, figure 8, and probably even braking). And yes, my car is still fun and playful, but with a hell of a lot more torque and grip.

With all that being said, I think Mazda did an excellent job with the new car. They don't need these kinds of journalistic shenanigans to make a good showing for/of their product. It's a fun car that will be just right for some people. For a performance review, I'll wait for a base Miata performance review so I can really see what the car can do. (especially vs. base 86).

**DAEMANO's FSM - 2013 Raven FR-S - Supercharged @ est 235 WHP / 210 WTQ on RS-R suspension and 235/40/18 summer tires, Winmax brakes, e85, catless EL and TRD exhaust. - Total mods about $6k including both performance and cosmetics.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Why not test a base Miata vs. a base BRZ/FR-S? Or why not a Club Miata vs a base BRZ/FR-S with MT simply stating that there are no performance variants of the twins widely available in the U.S? Seems to me they're trying to make the price/performance aspect of the comparison look more apples to apples than it really is. I hate that Randy Pobst (a guy most everyone respects) is anywhere near this kind of editorial spin.

Because magazines typically do not get to determine the trim level of the car GIVEN to them. It was obvious to me (based on the article) that the upgrades that put the Miata at $32k are marginal performance benefits over the $28k Club edition which is less than a well optioned BRZ much less the Series Blue and only a hair over $1k more than the FR-S.

Well informed buyers will never take a single source, enthusiasts who care about laptimes outside of benchracing should be able to sort through the spin.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Because magazines typically do not get to determine the trim level of the car GIVEN to them.

This is true, however MT could have take a break in the snarky banter to point out the degree of upgrades that were on their test car vs. a base Miata (instead of making it sound like Miata's generally will perform like their upgraded test car. They could also have mentioned that the BRZ had really no performance modifications whatsoever and a stock BRZ/FRS would be much cheaper but perform the same. That's simply responsible journalism.

It was obvious to me (based on the article) that the upgrades that put the Miata at $32k are marginal performance benefits over the $28k Club edition

This was the Miata's Brembo BBK that should have netted something better than marginal performance benefits in a 2300 lb car.

which is less than a well optioned BRZ much less the Series Blue and only a hair over $1k more than the FR-S.

Since the article focused on driving dynamics and measurable performance. Testing a "well optioned" BRZ could only be done to try and level the pricing scale. If we're talking about driving dynamics and peformance, base for base would be much more insightful (and fourth right). If those cars weren't provided then MT could have at least made mention of it.

Well informed buyers will never take a single source, enthusiasts who care about laptimes outside of benchracing should be able to sort through the spin.

Have you read the replies in this thread?

Plain and simple.
If we're talking performance metrics and hot lapping... show me $26k Miata vs. $26k BRZ/FR-S with all the same tests. Both cars exist. Not $32K upgraded Miata vs $26k (performance wise) BRZ/FR-S.

[SUB-FT86]

I like the new ND but if you guys have noticed 2 of 3 editors(Carlos Lago being one) from MT said that they still prefer the BRZ regardless of acceleration differences. That alone should tell you something.

[DohcTor]

The 2005 Scion tC is faster than the twins. Almost anything is lol

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

This is true, however MT could have take a break in the snarky banter to point out the degree of upgrades that were on their test car vs. a base Miata (instead of making it sound like Miata's generally will perform like their upgraded test car.

...

Have you read the replies in this thread?

Plain and simple.
If we're talking performance metrics and hot lapping... show me $26k Miata vs. $26k BRZ/FR-S with all the same tests. Both cars exist. Not $32K upgraded Miata vs $26k (performance wise) BRZ/FR-S.

tl;dr test isn't biased (aside from admitted human preference in said article), trim differences are noted in the article, nobody should base their views on one source, article is fine if a bit hamfisted.

From the Motortrend article:

Our BRZ came outfitted with Subaru's latest Series.Blue package of fancy black STI wheels, ground-effects gingerbread, and interior spiffs.
...
He suspects that for him, "the [$3,400] spent on the Miata's Brembo/BBS/Bilstein package would be better spent in the aftermarket.

Again, very clear to me what the difference in trims were even with no background knowledge in conjunction with page three which clearly states the trim levels and prices of each package, the only thing not mentioned is the LSD option on the Miata and they're wrong about the Bilstein's being an option on the Club trim. The price difference will shake out once people take the time to look away from the shiny red paint, as you put it it's a $26.5k BRZ (don't forget delivery fees) with doodads, and I'll claim it's a $29.5k Miata with doodads. The Bilstein's come standard on the Club trim at $29.5k, the wheels and brake kit save a whopping 10 lbs total, and those Bridgestone S001's are hardly leaps and bounds ahead of the Michelin's. I really can't get on board with this being called an unfair or biased comparison. It's not like Mazda sent out cars with slicks or custom suspension a la Ferrari, the price differential is right there, the trim levels are listed out in the open.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...ta/brakes.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ub-test-review

I don't see the point in hot lapping the Miata without the LSD to get a $26k comparison, benchracing at it's finest imo, irrelevant. If you have $26k and want the best new track car possible, save up the extra $3k if the Miata ticks the right boxes, trim level is not a game changing factor here, we're not talking about a Mustang V6 vs V8.

They get paid for snarky banter, otherwise nobody would comment and everyone would say "Yup, those are the laptimes and figures along with some basic impressions". Which has been ardently covered in these responses already.

It's not like they shitcanned the BRZ or that it's some ridiculous comparison when we regularly link comparisons to Cayman's and 370Z's and S2000's and RX-8's because they show the strengths of the 86. This showcases the strengths of the Miata due to it's weight

As for the responses in this thread, seems to me it's half 'fuck yeah the new Miata is awesome' and half butthurt from fanboi's trying to talk down the Miata's advantage coming out of this single review. I guess you can tell which camp I fall into.

Go ahead, take the hypothetical $3k price difference and put hypothetical tires and brakes and alignment on the 86. It doesn't matter. They're damn close and based on what Motortrend observed, the Miata edges out the BRZ from the factory for a couple grand more.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by DohcTor

The 2005 Scion tC is faster than the twins. Almost anything is lol

You must really hate these cars badly, all I see is troll posts from you. Why not get rid of yours then? Find a car that makes you happy.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Go ahead, take the hypothetical $3k price difference and put hypothetical tires and brakes and alignment on the 86. It doesn't matter. They're damn close and based on what Motortrend observed, the Miata edges out the BRZ from the factory for a couple grand more.

I agree with this. No review is ever going to be completely fair to both cars. You can:

1) Spec both cars to have the same features the best you can (price disparity ignored)

2) Spec both cars in their lowest performance trim

3) Spec both cars in their highest performance trim (seems to be the case here; I'd say it's Subaru's fault the Series Blue is a purely aesthetic package)

etc. etc.

At the end of the day, who cares? This review was about as fair as you're going to get. Ultimately the two cars are pretty evenly matched. The Miata has more of that light weight goodness. The BRZ is more practical.

Most of the editors said they'd pick the BRZ - I don't think they were trying to be biased against the BRZ.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

You must really hate these cars badly, all I see is troll posts from you. Why not get rid of yours then? Find a car that makes you happy.

I don't think he actually owns one. No point arguing with him.

[SUB-FT86]

For next generation of the FRS/BRZ I hope Toyobaru could drop 150-200 lbs more while giving us a FA20 with 15hp/10tq more or a FA22 or something.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

For next generation of the FRS/BRZ I hope Toyobaru could drop 150-200 lbs more while giving us a FA20 with 15hp/10tq more or a FA22 or something.

Exactly what I was thinking. Knowing Toyota though, they'll probably make it heavier by adding useless features/sound deadening because that's what generic focus groups will tell them to do.

[drewbot]

Originally Posted by DohcTor

The 2005 Scion tC is faster than the twins. Almost anything is lol

In a straight line accelerating only, I bet