Driving stick shift (twins vs any other sticks)

[fantah]

In my opinion, the twins clutch is one of the best I've driven on. My friends 2012 STI feels squishy and my old 6 puck sentra se-r was a nightmare lol

[TwoForceMember]

My last car (till 2 weeks ago) was a 1998 neon RT. Bought it new. It had a cable operated clutch and I loved it. Drove it for 280k miles and its still going strong. My new 2015 dark gray metallic clutch has me feeling like I just started learning clutch again. I swear I have almost stalled it off the line a bunch of times. I think the lack of torque down low has more to do with that than the clutch, but it really is vague. I haven't tried removing the spring yet as I only have like 400 miles on the car. I figure I will give it a chance, then ditch it. My neon's clutch was easily this light, but had perfect feel.

Anyway, My .02

[McFuu]

I've been driving nothing but manuals for 12 years now. Started on an 01 Escort Zx2. The clutch feel and shifter felt very similar to this car, except the clutch had more feel in the Zx2. Moved on to an 03 Jetta 1.8t Manual. Decent shifter, kind of dull all the way around, longer clutch, but much smoother and better feel than the twins. 11 Jetta 2.5SE after that, Great shifter and clutch, again shifter is longer throw, but very smooth, solid shifts, the clutch felt like a compound bow. It was odd to get used to at first, but I wound up loving it shortly there after, you knew where the friction point was and when it was coming up based on the clutch pushed harder, but when you just wanted the clutch in at a light it was very easy at the bottom. A lot of feel all the way around to be honest. Very easy car to learn to drive manual in, taught a slew of friends by just giving them the keys and explaining the jist of it all. Now I have the 14 BRZ. Clutch is much shorter with a steady pressure through out, engagement is completely dull, feels the same on friction as it does not making contact. Shifter is great, although very notchy at points, I'm assuming I'm still running Subaru recommended fluid in there, a switch to a different fluid like many have suggested will clear that up. At the end of the day I got used to the clutch quickly in the car, if it's anything, it's extremely consistent.

[ashtray]

Cables will always feel more vague compared with direct mechanical linkage. As for which is normal - both - though more cars probably use cables these days.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by TwoForceMember

My last car (till 2 weeks ago) was a 1998 neon RT. Bought it new. It had a cable operated clutch and I loved it. Drove it for 280k miles and its still going strong. My new 2015 dark gray metallic clutch has me feeling like I just started learning clutch again. I swear I have almost stalled it off the line a bunch of times. I think the lack of torque down low has more to do with that than the clutch, but it really is vague. I haven't tried removing the spring yet as I only have like 400 miles on the car. I figure I will give it a chance, then ditch it. My neon's clutch was easily this light, but had perfect feel.

Anyway, My .02

Lack of torque down low contributing to your inability to shift this OEM setup smoothly? lol @Ultramaroon show this guy the light

[carma143]

Originally Posted by ryoma

for me, it's all about the guessing game. I still am not completely satisfied with the clutch after 2k+ miles. I adjusted my pedal so it grabs about 1 inch off the floor since that's what I'm used to. so besides the lack of feedback, I just estimate how much off the floor my foot is. I have no feeling in the clutch at all so I just guess the distance it travels. I rely on muscle memory to get it right, and it's not bad. what gets me though, is the gas pedal. there's a deadzone of about 1-2cm before anything happens. I came from an 86 MR2 where throttle response was instant because it used cables instead of this DBW crap. I hate DBW. hopefully I can remove that deadzone with a tune later on down the road.

I think the previous owner of my car removed the deadzone of the gas pedal. When in 1st gear and I put gas pedal foot on the floor, the car jerks slightly every few seconds as it slows down and it gets annoying. This may be because the slight forces in the engine braking causing the pedal to move slightly, creating tbat effect.

I can be barely touching the gas pedal (to point where I dont even feel it though my shoe yet) and its enough to get the car moving. If you're willing to visit the torrance area, I may let you test out how it feels.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Koa

Lack of torque down low contributing to your inability to shift this OEM setup smoothly? lol @Ultramaroon show this guy the light

Ay, too used to how a real clutch should work, @TwoForceMember. Lots of leverage in the stock setup. Way too much. The spring removal is nice; required if you're lowering the pedal, IMHO.

The real culprit is the long engagement arc. Most of us unconsciously blip the throttle and let the clutch engage during spool-down.

This thing is awful for that because by the time you think/feel the clutchshould be engaged, you're only halfway there. I cussed at it for a month or so, either stalling it or smoking the clutch.

Here's how to change the gearing to shorten that engagement arc. It transforms the whole experience.

BTW, @Koa, @Decay107 let me drive his after he installed the Perrin engine mounts. Oh, man! Rubber banding eliminated! Only drove around a parking lot in first gear trying to induce it but it was gone! Am I dreaming?

[ZHoward]

haha im driving 桑塔纳 to learn manual , too


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[Koa]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Ay, too used to how a real clutch should work, @TwoForceMember. Lots of leverage in the stock setup. Way too much. The spring removal is nice; required if you're lowering the pedal, IMHO.

The real culprit is the long engagement arc. Most of us unconsciously blip the throttle and let the clutch engage during spool-down.

This thing is awful for that because by the time you think/feel the clutchshould be engaged, you're only halfway there. I cussed at it for a month or so, either stalling it or smoking the clutch.

Here's how to change the gearing to shorten that engagement arc. It transforms the whole experience.

BTW, @Koa, @Decay107 let me drive his after he installed the Perrin engine mounts. Oh, man! Rubber banding eliminated! Only drove around a parking lot in first gear trying to induce it but it was gone! Am I dreaming?

As always, excellent and eloquent explanation of what's going on in this system!

As for the engine mounts- No sir! It's amazing, innit? I have been out of my FRS for... going on 2 months as of the 21st.

Really ticked off that its' taking this long to repair my rear-end accident. Fuck Everett and their uninsured drivers plowing into you, pushing your baby onto the sidewalk and fucking up the whole undercarriage. I'm really salty about it, and admittedly it's why I've been gone. Just looking at this forum makes me miss my baby so much.. :'

I'm going to make a thread about my journey and specifically what Racer-X Fabrication has done to help me along this process.. It's pretty amazing what they did and I don't wanna spoil it before releasing the whole story

[ryoma]

Originally Posted by carma143

I think the previous owner of my car removed the deadzone of the gas pedal. When in 1st gear and I put gas pedal foot on the floor, the car jerks slightly every few seconds as it slows down and it gets annoying. This may be because the slight forces in the engine braking causing the pedal to move slightly, creating tbat effect.

I can be barely touching the gas pedal (to point where I dont even feel it though my shoe yet) and its enough to get the car moving. If you're willing to visit the torrance area, I may let you test out how it feels.

do you know what the previous owner did to the throttle? if the bogging of the engine is caused by an overly sensitive throttle pedal, then that is bad too lol

[carma143]

Originally Posted by ryoma

do you know what the previous owner did to the throttle? if the bogging of the engine is caused by an overly sensitive throttle pedal, then that is bad too lol

I haven't tried to figure out what he did yet. I'm still trying to get the chance to drive someone else's manual BRZ so I can compare. I plan to find some way to stop the bogging once summer hits.

[Atticus808]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

1. I had a clutch fail on me (on my old pickup), not sure if I lost hydraulic pressure, the pressure plate collapsed or what, point is the clutch went to the floor and at the very end of the travel it seemed to engage enough for me to get it in and out of gear and limp it home without grinding to high heaven.

If I had adjusted the pedal to be closer to the floor I think I would have been stranded and not known to move the pedal back even if I had the tools.

2. You do not need to go all the way to the floor to shift smoothly and safely with the oem setup, in doing so I find that I can operate the clutch more quickly because I only need to go a few inches, just barely hitting the halfway point of the stroke, foot strike fast like cobra. If I had the engagement point down low I would be operating it like a cave man, foot down, foot hit floor, move gear lever, lift foot off floor, a gross exaggeration but all of this stuff is subjective anyway, there's that delay as you waste time and energy putting force into the pedal stop (which will likely break eventually like it did on my pickup a few weeks ago) and waiting for that feedback to know you can do your shift and lift off again.

3. New discovery that is hardly relevant, I broke my foot and with the cast there exists the possibility that if I'm not positioned correctly my foot catches on the dead pedal, the pedal box, or the brake. Given that my clutch catches 'high' up on the stroke I am still able to shift without fumbling if my left foot doesn't land on the pedal quite right. Would not have been the end of the world with a lower clutch pedal, just would have taken a second or two longer to reposition and try again and maybe a bit of grinding in the process.

All just ridiculous speculation based on the cars that I've driven. If I were to operate a 5-ton clutch that's an inch off the floor I would figure it out and work with it before giving up or tearing it apart, I'm not saying this way is the only way. There's enough advantages in the factory setup that I'm not itching to change it.

I might try removing the helper spring at some point but other than that I'm pretty happy with it. The car is by no means an easy one to drive when it comes to the MT part, it takes practice.

well i was gonna lower the clutch but now i don't know anymore!

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Atticus808

well i was gonna lower the clutch but now i don't know anymore!

Totally personal preference. It's good to learn how to shift without the clutch so one doesn't need to rely on it. The trick is in stopping. Coast to a stop and shut off the engine. When you're ready to go, stick it in first and start the engine. Still need to push the clutch pedal for the starter interlock but the car will start and go just fine.

[ryoma]

I'm pretty sure for newer cars like ours, you don't have to worry about catastrophic clutch failure out of no where. maybe for cars that are 10+ years old, but IMO it's an unfounded worry unless you constantly abuse the crap out of the car. even if the clutch does go bad, there will be signs like the TOB squeaking or the pedal feeling different. and if the clutch does blow up, well, adjusting your pedal wouldn't help with that haha

EDIT: I read a few posts wrong, but still, newer cars like ours shouldn't have any problems with the clutch master cylinder that would warrant any worries.