BRZ or FR-S suspension sucks, but put them together...

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Stupid question but are the stock alignment settings the same for the FRS and BRZ? If they are different, what settings would you dial in with this set up?

The alignment settings are the same for both models, and the stock struts are not adjustable, so switching between stock struts has no noticeable effect on alignment. I just make sure I take up the slack in the bolt holes the same way every time I remount the struts. There's about 1 degree of play in the camber of the suspension when the bolts are loose. I've gotten used to removing and replacing suspension on my car, so I just jack it up on stands front and rear, then take about 30 minutes per corner to remove and re-install.
Having camber adjustment on the track/twisty setup would be a distinct advantage, so I will be getting adjustable top hats for the front suspension of that setup. Adjustable top hats have the advantage of being lockable, with bolts that tighten down to lock the camber settings, and they don't affect the toe angle as much as adjustable camber bolts, so I won't need to realign when I switch back to the comfortable setup.
As far as the cost of alignment goes, I have a place that aligns all 4 wheels for only $40, and they'll do it my way. I can tell them how many degrees I want, and where. I usually have them align the front perfectly straight and the back with .05 degrees of toe angle on each side. When I have adjustable top hats I'll include -1 degree of camber. That's a better alignment then you'll get from a dealer, and a lot cheaper too.

[finch1750]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

As far as the cost of alignment goes, I have a place that aligns all 4 wheels for only $40, and they'll do it my way. I can tell them how many degrees I want, and where. I usually have them align the front perfectly straight and the back with 5 degrees of toe angle on each side. When I have adjustable top hats I'll include -1 degree of camber. That's a better alignment then you'll get from a dealer, and a lot cheaper too.

5° of toe? Lol. Do you mean .05? And you probably want to get a but more than -1° camber. I understeer with anything less than -2 up front

[Panman]

Originally Posted by Fizz

Mystery wheel alignment. You ALMOST read about it here first.

Fixed that for you

[pantdino]

Originally Posted by BlueDubbinTDI

This dude spent a long time typing out what 9/10 of us already knew

... but had never actually tried what should work on paper and found that it works in reality.


I am no stranger to sports cars, but the stock suspension on my '13 FRS is too stiff--- I don't need to feel every 2mm change in the pavement.


So I'm glad someone found an inexpensive way to soften the ride a bit.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by pantdino

I am no stranger to sports cars, but the stock suspension on my '13 FRS is too stiff

You have purchased a sports car expecting a limousine ride?

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by pantdino

I don't need to feel every 2mm change in the pavement.

I see you have nothing but sports cars in your garage. I bet your FR-S has the worst ride of all of them. Try changing the rear springs to BRZ rears and get back to me. You'll be surprised how much more oversteer you get just by softening the rear springs.

The surprising thing is that both Subaru and Toyota screwed it up in opposite ways. I made a set of soft coilovers with OEM springs and struts, and a set of firm coilovers with Bilstein HD struts, just by combining FR-S and BRZ stock springs. FR-S front and BRZ rear = soft, BRZ front and FR-S rear = firm.

I think the best ride is going to come from a dual rate adjustable coilover with stiffer helper springs. I've just redesigned my HKS hypermax gt iv's by swapping the front with the rear springs. I setup the helper spring preload so there is 1/2" of helper travel before the upper spring begins to compress. If it works out, this is going to be my fair-weather setup, so I'll be swapping to that after I switch out my tires to summer tires.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

I think the best ride is going to come from a dual rate adjustable coilover with stiffer helper springs. I've just redesigned my HKS hypermax gt iv's by swapping the front with the rear springs.

so your assuming that helper-spring swapping is going to do more than the adjustability of the damping?

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

You'll be surprised how much more oversteer you get just by softening the rear springs.

"a stiffer rear sway bar will greatly reduce the understeer the car experiences."
http://www.americanmuscle.com/overst...explained.html

"If the car understeers a lot, fit a bigger rear sway-bar."
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article...igans&A=112694

" Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the rear axle will have the opposite effect and decrease understeer."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-roll_bar

"The following steps can be taken to decrease oversteer:... softer rear springs"
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Track/highperfdriving.htm

"Understeer Corrections....Stiffer rear springs"
http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/susp-15.htm

"Reducing understeer by adjusting spring rate
Increase rear spring rate - this will increase the rear roll resistance which will reduce understeer but increase oversteer."
http://www.pugaddicts.co.uk/2014/04/...adjusting.html

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

"a stiffer rear sway bar will greatly reduce the understeer the car experiences."
http://www.americanmuscle.com/overst...explained.html

"If the car understeers a lot, fit a bigger rear sway-bar."
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article...igans&A=112694

" Increasing the proportion of roll stiffness at the rear axle will have the opposite effect and decrease understeer."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-roll_bar

"The following steps can be taken to decrease oversteer:... softer rear springs"
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Track/highperfdriving.htm

"Understeer Corrections....Stiffer rear springs"
http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/susp-15.htm

"Reducing understeer by adjusting spring rate
Increase rear spring rate - this will increase the rear roll resistance which will reduce understeer but increase oversteer."
http://www.pugaddicts.co.uk/2014/04/...adjusting.html

This is just full of win.

OP, just curious, did you at all calculate the stiffness needed to be at ideal critical damping? (Roughly 65%~+/-2%) as stated in one of the links Snooze quoted, did you find the roll center? Where is it located and how well does it respond to a change of spring stiffness outside of that crit zone?


The thought of softer rates is logical since you figure, oh going into the corner harder will give me more travel on the spring right? While that is correct, it won't improve oversteer, stiffer springs won't let the car's weight transfer as 'completely' as softer springs, thus kicking the tail out easier/more/faster you name it.

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by cdrazic93

This is just full of win.

OP, just curious, did you at all calculate the stiffness needed to be at ideal critical damping? (Roughly 65%~+/-2%) as stated in one of the links Snooze quoted, did you find the roll center? Where is it located and how well does it respond to a change of spring stiffness outside of that crit zone?


The thought of softer rates is logical since you figure, oh going into the corner harder will give me more travel on the spring right? While that is correct, it won't improve oversteer, stiffer springs won't let the car's weight transfer as 'completely' as softer springs, thus kicking the tail out easier/more/faster you name it.

Since I just mentioned changing the rear springs to the softer BRZ springs, I was talking about a soft setup for DD use. I don't recommend using the same coilovers for DD and track, since it would be a compromise and wouldn't work great for either.

Softer springs in back let the tracking rods do their job better. The more the rear of the car leans, the further the tracking rods adjust the wheel's camber and toe angles. That is why a BRZ has more oversteer than the FR-S, because the rearend leans farther in corners.

[canadaRS1.0]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

Since I just mentioned changing the rear springs to the softer BRZ springs, I was talking about a soft setup for DD use. I don't recommend using the same coilovers for DD and track, since it would be a compromise and wouldn't work great for either.

Softer springs in back let the tracking rods do their job better. The more the rear of the car leans, the further the tracking rods adjust the wheel's camber and toe angles. That is why a BRZ has more oversteer than the FR-S, because the rearend leans farther in corners.

trollolololol


i hope... lol

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

If you think I'm wrong then prove it with some facts and cite your sources,

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

You'll be surprised how much more oversteer you get just by softening the rear springs.

I have refuted your statement (in bold) with links to sources and yet I do not see any comment on what I believe to be an error on your behalf.

[continuecrushing]

do any of you guys have an issue with your car being becoming fwd if you go in reverse really fast?

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by KoolBRZ

That is why a BRZ has more oversteer than the FR-S, because the rearend leans farther in corners.

I do hope you know that you're saying is flying right in the face of physics.

Pobst: "I like the Subaru better, primarily because it's less loose on entry. In the Scion, you feel the back move almost before the front. In the Subaru, it's more one piece. And I can be more aggressive entering turns with the Subaru. It's a decreasing maneuver -- I'm entering on the brakes and cornering -- and because the Subaru isn't as tail-happy, I can use more brakes entering the corner and carry more speed in. It's the same thing coming off the corner. The Subaru doesn't oversteer as easily, so I can get to the power sooner."

Lago: "The BRZ seems a bit slower to transition from understeer to oversteer than the FR-S. It stays neutral longer, where the FR-S switches quickly back and forth. I was able to hold the BRZ right in that space between the two extremes longer, and I like that extra stability."

You're inclined to disagree with them, but I hope you know that you're just flat out wrong.

Randy Pobst's opinion > yours.