When the FR-S get a HP increase...

[PhantomX]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

North American Model Year 2017 Refresh. Rest of world gets some of this in 2016, but the big news will be Scion moving to multiple trim levels per vehicle to improve margins and offer audience features missing from the single model. Base model becomes "Sport" model. "Performance and "Touring" models added to sit above base. Weight remains unchanged in the base model 2700 lbs.

"Sport" (base) model gets:
1. Revised front and rear fascia. Softer edges, no more fangs, less aggressive headlamp shape. More modern treatments all around.
2. Revised HIDs and LED lighting to go with the new bumpers standard
3. No Automatic transmission offered.
4. Max Performance summer tires on revised wheels
5. Cricket-free fuel pump
6. Reduced torque dip
7. 10-15 more HP at the crank (now 210-215 stock)

"Performance" model gets (all Sport model+) +$4-$5k over base
1. More aggressive front and rear fascia than Sport or Touring model
2. UHP Summer tires on +1 wheel upgrade (18")
3. TRD and/or STi BBK
4. OEM Short shifter kit
5. Faux CF trim in cabin
6. Revised steering wheel
7. Shift knob
8. OEM AOS / Catch can
9. OEM Oil cooler
10. 25 more HP at the crank (now 225 stock)
11. Loud paint
12. Badges

"Touring" Model gets + $4k price over base
1. Automatic Transmission only
2. Sound tube delete
3. A LOT of additional sound insulation
4. Leather interior
5. Dual zone climate
6. All Season tires on softer suspension
7. Pearl paint with even more pearl shit
8. Chrome
9. Understeer

Barring the possible underlying sarcasm, as great as this sounds, Scion's Monospec design won't allow such things. There always will be a "base" model that can be custom to order and a "special edition."

"Monospec" means that there is just one standard trim level available. No "Grades". No "Packages". Every Scion arrives complete with a generous monospec. You only need to choose color and transmission, along with any style, comfort or performance accessories you wish to add.

I don't entirely agree with this. I would rather have what Toyota Japan has, which is multiple grades/trimlines.

[tennisfreak]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

People who only recourse for speed is the throttle typically suck at driving anyway. The FR-S is like a two-fiddy motorcycle.

This is a typical fanboy type of post.

While the car has adequate power it would be nice to have a few more ponies under the hood.

Yes the car handles great and is about the experience but it is underpowered enough to suffer on the track against what many would consider "pigs".

Just look at this MotorTrend track test: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
The FR-S has a slower lap time than a Mustang V6 and Hyundai Genisis Coupe. Neither of those other cars handle as nicely as a FR-S BUT they have a substantial HP advantage which shows even in a track environment (not just straight line).

All of the cars were lapped by Randy Pobst (if you wanna say he sucks at driving then you need to be slapped).

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

This is a typical fanboy type of post.

...

Just look at this MotorTrend track test: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
The FR-S has a slower lap time than a Mustang V6 and Hyundai Genisis Coupe. Neither of those other cars handle as nicely as a FR-S BUT they have a substantial HP advantage which shows even in a track environment (not just straight line).

All of the cars were lapped by Randy Pobst (if you wanna say he sucks at driving then you need to be slapped).

That's the thing though, if you're really concerned about getting passed on the track you must realize that 90% of the people at an HPDE are nowhere near Pobst's level, odds are you will be several seconds slower even after many hours of practice, same with the guy in a V6 Mustang.

I've got video of my dinky little FR-S with "not enough ponies" passing >6L Chevy V8's and BMW M's and Mustangs and Porsche's built in the last 10 years with 8, 9 and 10 inch wide wheels simply because those guys aren't at the level where they can take full advantage of the car (by no means am I at that level).

If you are absolutely serious about griping about being two seconds slower around a track for $30k then get in an environment with a level playing field, the FR-S simply isn't that car and it was never supposed to be regardless of what you expected.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

...While the car has adequate power it would be nice to have a few more ponies under the hood.

What car couldn't? Even a Veyron they added power to over time because someone said "Sure, it's stupid fast, but how about 5 more horses to make it super duper stupid fast".

Originally Posted by tennisfreak

...
Just look at this MotorTrend track test: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
The FR-S has a slower lap time than a Mustang V6 and Hyundai Genisis Coupe. Neither of those other cars handle as nicely as a FR-S BUT they have a substantial HP advantage which shows even in a track environment (not just straight line).

All of the cars were lapped by Randy Pobst (if you wanna say he sucks at driving then you need to be slapped).

He also added this about the Mustang...

"In terms of this group of cars, fast and numb. Big tire advantage. The tires have a ton of grip. They feel like the slicks I run in the Pirelli World Challenge [racing series] on my K-Pax Volvo."

Decent track tires could have easily made the difference in the time around the track. (I know more fanboy speech...)

[LucidMomentum]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Decent track tires could have easily made the difference in the time around the track. (I know more fanboy speech...)

I'm on stock tires and it still handles like a dream. I'm going to get into trouble going too fast through corners when I get tires with more grip...

[tennisfreak]

Personally I have grown to love the stock tires and their ability to break loose easy.

For a daily driver they are the perfect tires for this car IMO.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

People who only recourse for speed is the throttle typically suck at driving anyway. The FR-S is like a two-fiddy motorcycle.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

That's exactly why many of us like it and are totally satisfied with the horsepower.



In short, if I can be fast in this I can be fast in anything.

I'm not arguing with you, but I think it's a matter of personal preference. I kind of hate how people imply that more hp is useless on a track and the fr-s is ideal for track use. There are multiple lines through corners, and the proper one to take depends on a lot of factors, including HP. In low HP cars, like the miata and fr-s, you end up taking the momentum line, which emphasizes maximum apex speed, or basically emphasizes losing the least amount of speed. This means you take the widest turn possible. Which is usually break in a straight line hugging the outside, turn sharply towards a mid apex, slam on the gas at apex since you don't have enough power to power-over, and drive towards the corner exit. While this is fun and rewarding and teaches you a lot of driving (like what a good high cornering speed is), it's not the be-all end all and only way to have fun at the track.

One of the reasons I didn't go for the fr-s is that most sports cars these days are not momentum cars, and you need to drive differently. Depending on your HP, you want to get to the apex quicker, and accelerating on corner exit becomes very "exciting." It becomes more important to spend less time in the corner, and drive something more like the minimum-distance or diamond line. Which involves trail breaking and bombing the apex, and careful throttle application on exit.

I asked many drivers much better than me at the track if you learn throttle control in the fr-s and the consensus I got was no.

edit: I used to driev on canyon roads more when I was younger and poorer. While I feel like it did teach me good breaking and turn-in skills, I learned nothing about throttling on corner exit, and I still have problems with it to this day. One of the large places why my track times still suck ass.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Decent track tires could have easily made the difference in the time around the track. (I know more fanboy speech...)

the primacy hp get decent track times. they get times like UHP tires. The twins actually don't gain all that much time on better tires, they don't really have the hp to take full advantage. Yes the times improve, but they still stay around the same class of compeititors.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by totopo

This means you take the widest turn possible. Which is usually break in a straight line hugging the outside, turn sharply towards a mid apex, slam on the gas at apex since you don't have enough power to power-over, and drive towards the corner exit.

That's not carrying enough speed into the corner, the only way you can 'slam on the gas at apex' is if you're going too slow for your inputs to matter. What you've described shows that the driver is braking too hard and more momentum can be carried through the corner.



The momentum line applies to all vehicles, not just the Miata or Toyobaru. A timed lap results in an average speed, graph your speed over a lap and you'll have peaks and valleys, it's a lot easier to bring up the low points (which often has the added bonus of increasing the peaks as well) than it is to increase the top end, cheaper too for most of us average folk. I don't care if you've got 10" wide Hoosier Slicks and 600 horses, physics applies the same.

[billwot]

"It's not about power. If you can't go fast with 90 horsepower, 900 ain't gonna help ya." - Bob Hall, creator of the Miata

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by totopo

I'm not arguing with you, but I think it's a matter of personal preference. I kind of hate how people imply that more hp is useless on a track and the fr-s is ideal for track use. There are multiple lines through corners, and the proper one to take depends on a lot of factors, including HP. In low HP cars, like the miata and fr-s, you end up taking the momentum line, which emphasizes maximum apex speed, or basically emphasizes losing the least amount of speed. This means you take the widest turn possible. Which is usually break in a straight line hugging the outside, turn sharply towards a mid apex, slam on the gas at apex since you don't have enough power to power-over, and drive towards the corner exit. While this is fun and rewarding and teaches you a lot of driving (like what a good high cornering speed is), it's not the be-all end all and only way to have fun at the track.

One of the reasons I didn't go for the fr-s is that most sports cars these days are not momentum cars, and you need to drive differently. Depending on your HP, you want to get to the apex quicker, and accelerating on corner exit becomes very "exciting." It becomes more important to spend less time in the corner, and drive something more like the minimum-distance or diamond line. Which involves trail breaking and bombing the apex, and careful throttle application on exit.

I asked many drivers much better than me at the track if you learn throttle control in the fr-s and the consensus I got was no.

edit: I used to driev on canyon roads more when I was younger and poorer. While I feel like it did teach me good breaking and turn-in skills, I learned nothing about throttling on corner exit, and I still have problems with it to this day. One of the large places why my track times still suck ass.



the primacy hp get decent track times. they get times like UHP tires. The twins actually don't gain all that much time on better tires, they don't really have the hp to take full advantage. Yes the times improve, but they still stay around the same class of compeititors.

Have you ever actually driven an FR-S at the track? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what it's like to drive these cars at the track, a lot of which I can tell you is wrong, especially about power-oversteer and throttle application on exit. Also, why wouldn't you be trail-braking into corners on low-hp cars like the Miata and FR-S?

Lastly I've mentioned this before, but there are tests showing that the GT86 gains 2 seconds at Hockenheimring by switching to what you would call UHP tires. The GT86 also shaved 20+ seconds at Nurburgring with the same tire switch.

This is only on mild RE050A's, same category of tires that come stock on cars like the Focus ST, 370z, Miata, Mazdaspeed 3, MK7 GTI, etc.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by LucidMomentum

...what will we all complain about next on the forums?

To answer your original question - All the 108 posts above only with higher starting spec numbers!

[paros28]

There are actually 2 different vantage points here. Both sides may be correct and this creates endless arguments.

1. Track use
2. Street use

Track use. The stock car may lack power. However, it was all along the intention of Toyota/Subaru to provide a cheap but customizable platform. And there is a large number of aftermarket options to support this. How much power you want? How much you want to spend? You decide.

Street use. The stock car has adequate power for normal driving on public roads. And it is quite fool intolerant.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOdIyORIRfw"]Asshole crashes Subaru BRZ - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5daG0T14jY"]GT86 Crash on A14 - YouTube[/ame]

[tahdizzle]

Love shack? Really lol

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

Love shack? Really lol

Wondered what the hell you were talking about and had to turn my speaker on!
Though for a sec there you had developed some sort of horrible 80s music coprolalia condition (often called tourettes in error) or something!