quick questions about this car in snow

[dnieves]

Originally Posted by juliog

Problem?

Wow those are some skinny tires!!!

[dnieves]

I wonder if a thick coat of clear plasti dip is durable enough for rust proofing? Clear so you don't have that gross black tar under the car and plasti dip so you can undo it if you need to.

[navanodd]

Originally Posted by andrewmay9

i appreciate all the feedback however I'm still curious about the rust proofing. Those links provided and my searches just found information about where to get it done if you've decided to do it. Is it a necessary thing for these cars?

From what I've read on here about people trying to work on the car after being through a winter or two, I'd recommend it.


I didn't end up getting mine rustproofed last winter as I bought the car while I was just about to get into December exams in school and afterward it already had been through plenty of salt.


I do plan on rustproofing this year. I think I'm going to go with Corrosion Free. Their website lists the dealers for it and if you can't find an independent shop you can get it done at Crappy Tire.


I haven't read anything bad about the product and it is clear and does not drip like Krown or Rust-Check. It isn't like the dealer wax rustproofings that are supposedly good for the life of the car, it's supposed to still be think enough to get into the nooks and crannies of the panels, but viscous enough not to drip everywhere.


Take a search in the Canada subforum, there have been plenty of rustproofing discussions.

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by Timmy_Jones

ABS - my tires aren't locked up when I'm sliding, the ABS system is working to keep them digging into the snow.

Yes - they are functionally "locked up" when sliding because they're sliding at an angle greater than their slip angle, which is basically the maximum angle between the direction in which a rolling tire is trying to go and the direction it's actually going (see here for a more detailed explanation of slip angle). When you turn on a surface against which you have normal traction, your tires are turned a bit past the angle between dead straight and the path you're traveling because of the force vectors acting at the contact patch. Tires are technically skidding sideways a tiny bit whenever you turn, but the rolling friction at the contact patch keeps them going in the intended direction. Once they begin to slip laterally beyond their maximum slip angle while maintaining traction, rolling friction is gone and ABS cannot affect this.

Slip angle (i.e. the difference between the intended direction of a rolling tire with traction and the actual direction in degrees from straight ahead) is important for dry road handling. Tires with smaller slip angles are more responsive to steering input, while tires with larger slip angles are slower to react and more forgiving near the edge. But once you start to skid, slip angle is irrelevant - you're just a bunch of mass sliding across a surface against which you have only kinetic friction to oppose your momentum. And the more mass you have, the more momentum you have - so it's harder to pull out of it.

ABS prevents skidding in a straight line - it does nothing for lateral skids.

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by moojpg2

I used to drive a P71 crown vic and ill tell you that was a beast in the snow compared to the BRZ. It was a heavy car and it got good traction. The BRZ/FRS sucks in the snow period. Its marginal at best with snow tires. I had blizzaks on mine and i barely made it up my street every time it snowed, got stuck twice, tried every trick in the book. My old crown vic never missed a beat however. Dont tell me based on math that a lighter car is better in the snow. The heavy car has the weight to displace the snow and get down to pavement and it tracks better in ruts. The brz has no chance.

You seem to be lumping multiple functions into your definition of "good in snow". All other things being equal, a heavier car will have more traction for starting from a dead stop. But (again, all other things being equal), a lighter car will maintain directional stability better on slippery surfaces because there's less mass trying to both push it off it's intended course and maintain the slide.

No matter how heavy the vehicle, it's not going to displace all the snow between it and the ground beneath. The snow under the contact patch is compacted, but the tires are still against snow and not road surface no matter how heavy the car, unless the snow's thin enough to be completely displaced by the tread blocks.

A Crown Vic has a lot more ground clearance than an FT86, so it can start and track in much deeper snow. When the white stuff reaches the spoiler lip, my car won't go because it becomes a snow plow (a function for which it was clearly not designed). Mass is a benefit for starting traction, but it's a drawback for stopping and cornering. Every article and all state driving manuals tell you the same thing: "Many 4x4 vehicles are heavier than passenger vehicles and actually may take longer to stop"(a quote from the Massachusetts "Safe Driving Winter Tips" section on their DOT website).

I drove a '67 Mini Cooper (1300 pounds) all year in Boston on the stock Dunlop SP-41s, and it easily blew through any amount of snow that didn't high-center it. My 350Z was fine in snow with winter tires, as was my '82 Fiat 2000 spider, my '75 Honda Civic, my '85 Mustang GT, my Z3 coupe, etc etc etc. If I had a problem starting on deep snow (which happens from time to time), I used the little shovel I carry in the car to clear tracks from rear to front tires and 10' in front. Once I get started, it's no problem to keep moving (and in the right direction, too).

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by bluesman

The flaw in your logic is that mass (which is what most people wrongly call weight) is the major component of momentum, and momentum is what keeps you sliding when you break loose. The kinetic energy of a car that's sliding on a wet or icy road with wheels locked does more to keep it sliding than its kinetic friction (a fraction of the car's weight) does to stop it. And the heavier the car is, the greater this deficit is - so a skid with locked wheels will be harder to stop on a heavier car than a lighter one unless the heavier car's tires have a much higher coefficient of friction than the light one's.

The math is simple - the kinetic friction of a locked, skidding tire is only 10 to 30% of the car's weight, but the contribution to momentum is 100% of the car's mass. So a lighter car should be much easier to pull out of a skid than a heavier one but only slightly more prone to skid with equally capable tires. Example: a 3500 pound 350Z weighs 40% more than a 2500 pound FR-S, so the extra half ton is a 40% greater contributior to momentum in a skid. But the same tires in appropriate sizes on the two cars will differ in kinetic friction by no more than 20% of the weights of the cars, which is only a 200 pound difference (which is only 20% of the contribution of the added weight to momentum). So weight contributes about twice as much to maintaining a skid as it does to starting and stopping one. All other things being equal, a lighter car should be better in snow than a heavier one. That's why you pass so many big 4x4s that skidded off the road while thinking they could turn and stop better than 2WDers.

See the illustration below. Weight is a measure of the pull of gravity on mass and can be measured as kinetic friction at the tire-road interface because that friction is a fraction of the car's weight.

The air dam on my 240z made for a great snowplow. Used to just putt right through it.

And what's with all the old beetle worship? They sucked in the snow.

[ntron1]

Originally Posted by andrewmay9

Im in the toronto area and our winters can get pretty bad and i have my 2014 frs as my DD so i will be taking it through the winter. Just wanted to know how this car holds up in winter with proper snow tires? I only have experience driving FWD cars in winter with all season/snow tires so a bit worried about the upcoming winter.

Originally Posted by jbsali

I'm in the same boat as you, just opposite side of the country. First RWD in the winter. Would be great if we could get some member experiences/ opinions in here!

Buy a beater 4wd for winter.

[bluesman]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

And what's with all the old beetle worship? They sucked in the snow.

Yes, they did - with stock tires. But with good winter tires, they were not bad at all. We had a '73 Karmann Goofy (bought new) and a '67 bug ragtop (bought VERY used). A large sand bag in the trunk (up front, for those of you too young to know the beetle family) reversed the rear weight bias enough to tame the oversteer. As with our FT86s, ground clearance was the limiting factor on snow go.

We routinely used studs in those days, and they were really great. I put studded snows on my wife's '74 Buick Apollo (rebadged Chevy Nova) with a 350 (4 barrel, huge duals, real limited slip) and it would climb walls. I'm debating having my Altimax Arctics studded before I put them on next month, but I still remember how unpleasant studs were on dry road.

[BRZnut]

Even with all season tires (which was fine on every other car I've had in this area) the BRZ sucks in the snow. I suspect since it has small low profile tires there just isn't enough rubber to get enough grip in snow and ice conditions. My car would slide to the side when stopped in front of my house because of the crown in the road!

[Mikem53]

Last winter we had a couple inches of snow and some ice here in the SE.
I wanted to take the FRS out to see how it handled in the snow..
I backed out of the garage and got stuck on a slight incline!
This is on the stock tires.. Which are worthless in the white stuff..
My bimmer is the same way with summer performance tires.. I Leave them parked and stay home..

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

I Leave them parked and stay home..

WOOOHOOO a 3 month vacation for me then!!!!!!!
So you are saying I would be screwed after this:

[murdoc]

I do the same thing in every RWD car I've owned. Taller, narrower snow tire, and drive like a grandma...who likes to hoon about when nobody's around.

[Freeze2196]

Don't do what I did and chance it on a performance summer tires....

This is the outcome!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRFS5gijwQg&list=UUczUWJF4pRfo-6-8RbcS4kQ&index=2"]I sure need some winter tires on my FRS.. - YouTube[/ame]

Luckily I did no damage the packed snow on the side of the road cushioned the impact.

[Superhatch]

I drove in two large snowstorms last year. One locally, and one while driving from southern Ohio to southern Wisconsin. I had on snow-sport tires and won't suggest anyone use them in anything but light snowfalls regardless of the car, but it wasn't a life changing event. I just had to drive carefully and allow for the conditions. I'll be running a full snow tire this year and can report back after that.

With that said our car isn't worthless in the snow. This is the first winter thread where I've heard people mention that the car can't drive in over 2" of snow (lol...really?) Our clearance isn't that different in stock trim compared to any of the smaller BMW coupes and those are driven all over Europe and the US in RWD configuration in the winter. Yes they are a couple hundred pounds heaver, but I can't imagine that's the only factor that makes them dive-able in the snow. That extra 250 lbs isn't over the rear wheels anyway.

I've personally driven at highway speeds, slow speeds, icy conditions, fresh snow, packed snow etc and I think the car is totally usable in the winter. My experience was on snow sports which were OK at the start of the season, and nearly useless at the end of the season. Get a 205/50/17 full snow tire, throw 50lbs of sand in the trunk (if you're really worried) and away you go.