Subaru's FT-86 Version still alive and coming confirms Automotive News

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by chulooz

I think that "IF" is key in whether or not there will be an all wheel drive system.

Im going to go out of my way to say that subaru will offer an AWD variant which will be a huge factor in the sales margin between the two marques.

I think if Subaru offers a turbo option and Toyota does not it will be a huge factor. AWD, not so much. (Plus maybe re-read a few of the above posts as to why AWD may not be too likely.)

[Snaps]

Edit: ^ I agree, the main difference will be whether Subaru makes a Turbo version, having AWD changes nothing for me.

Though if Toyota makes a turbo version, along with Subaru, I won't be able to find anything to complain about

Originally Posted by Dimman

Ichi's saying it can be done, not necessarily that it will be done.

I'm just saying it would be too expensive to be done.

We're talking the same language.

Yeah, what exactly were we arguing about? I agreed a few posts back that Subaru could do it, but I said that it would not be worth it to them in terms of profit, they likely wouldn't make thier money back if they decided to engineer an AWD system for the FT86.

Reading back through the other posts, I think I and Ichi were arguing whether it would be monetarily feasible, I'm saying it wouldn't be (agreeing with you), whereas Ichi is saying Subaru would make more money by taking the time and research to do it.

Edit: Both me and Ichi are Subaru owners so we are pretty familiar with the motor layout, AWD system etc... And these debates are more about killing time between official news...

Amen to that!

[chulooz]

I dont think there needs to be to much structural change for awd, maybe just more room as far as body paneling goes, the underpinnings of a smaller car (rwd) can be expanded upon to accommodate the needs of a larger system (awd).

Take a look at how little dimensions are needed to have the awd in the pre-2001 subaru impreza coupes, its really not to the point of structural reconstruction, especially if the ft-86 concept gets larger for production, which i think it will.

[Snaps]

I disagree, I don't think there will be enough room either in front of the front axle for the engine + trans (using the axle directly connected to the rear of the trans output), or beneath the engine (with the current setup) to add an extra driveshaft without major structural changes, or at the very least, major changes to the subframes, trans tunnel and height and positioning of the engine.

Edit: If the size of the car is increased a fair bit, there should be enough room.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Ichi: as for the $5k+ for the AWD option, I was thinking more along the lines of tooling costs. IF the motor would need to be relocated forward and therefore need the cross-member/mounts changes that is a LOT of extra money for tooling at the factory. And that defeats the cost-saving reasons for sharing the design. That is my reasoning behind the no-AWD thinking.

It should have extra holes or design the cross-member to fit both for RWD & AWD. Some of the company do put extra holes into the cars even though don't need it on that car.

Originally Posted by Snaps

I disagree, I don't think there will be enough room either in front of the front axle for the engine + trans (using the axle directly connected to the rear of the trans output), or beneath the engine (with the current setup) to add an extra driveshaft without major structural changes, or at the very least, major changes to the subframes, trans tunnel and height and positioning of the engine.

Edit: If the size of the car is increased a fair bit, there should be enough room.

I agree that, IF they could put a engine in on front of front axle, driveshaft need to be longer. But I disagree on front space. We're talking about boxer engine. Not straight engine. It's only 2 cylinders long, not 4 cylinders long. Yes, only 2 cylinders long it's still long for 2 cylinders (due to ridiculously hug pistons)... but that might change by new design from Toyota & Yamaha's new engine design.

As for the pic, Yes, I think I can fit 2L boxer engine in front of front axle. Maybe you don't believe how short boxer engine, so went to my car and measured the engine here's the pic (sorry for crappy pic, I was freezing).


Measurement came up around 17 & 3/4 inches long (that include the crank). I think still enough space to add radiators, fans and etc in front of FT86. Now, that's 2.5 Liter Boxer engine and not new gen 2 Liter boxer engine. New design 2 Liter engine might be shorter or longer IDK, but current 2 Liter (or 2.5 Liter) boxer engine still can fit in front of front axle of FT86.

Now, for cost efficient? IDK I'll let Subaru decide on that one. Cuz parts, they might able to use current Subaru line up ones. It it might be possible to be cost efficient on Subaru side. On Toyota side? IDK

[70NYD]

sorry to b anal but the boxer engine is not a 180 v engine, 2 different things. V engines have the rods of paired pistons on the same pin on crank shaft, meaning that the paired pistons move in and out off time (or in the 180 case alternately completly) where as the boxer has pistons that are mounted on 180 seperated pins so that they move in and out at the same time canceling all the forces out

Originally Posted by Snaps

Compared to a Boxer engine (180* V-engine), a 'normal' V engine is far easier to convert to AWD, there is a lot more room underneath, and to the sides of the engine block to convert to add a diff and driveshaft.

Whereas a Boxer engine takes up a lot of space in a horizontal plane, it has a very small vertical component compared to a V engine. This means there is less room on the sides of the engine for the driveshaft and diff (don't forget, most AWD systems cause the front driveshaft and diff to be offset, ie. not in the centre of the front axle.). For subaru to convert a RWD Boxer setup to an AWD Boxer setup the engine will almost certainly need to be raised to make room for the front driveshaft and diff, because of the design of a boxer. This will mean the hood will need to be raised, the hood mountings will need to be raised, the front bumper will need to be raised.... You get the point, and I'm just repeating myself now.

Once again, I'm not saying Subaru can't do it, they could, but it would be far more work than it's worth, and would defeat the purpose of the project being a joint cheap venture with Toyota.

ichitaka.
in regards to that legacy B4, dude comon thas a GT car, only 5-10% of that whole thing is actully a legacy, and like i mentioned earlier to make this a viable low mounted awd you need to move the engine back like its done in that photoe, the firewall had to be modified from stock positon and the driver sits further back

and im enjoying this black sheep business cus i like discussions

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

ichitaka.
in regards to that legacy B4, dude comon thas a GT car, only 5-10% of that whole thing is actully a legacy, and like i mentioned earlier to make this a viable low mounted awd you need to move the engine back like its done in that photoe, the firewall had to be modified from stock positon and the driver sits further back

and im enjoying this black sheep business cus i like discussions

LOL can't denied that that LB4 is super modify that it outside shell only has Legacy look and the rest is pure super car. Just saying it's possible to make front-mid engine an AWD. Currently, it's not cheap to make, but Subaru might make cheaper ver. Also moving engine forward is another option... but Dimman already burn me on that idea.... but longer driveshaft & redesign cross-member, it's possible.

Hey sometime gotta be black sheep of the group to keep the thread alive.

[Snaps]

70NYD, you're right, the Boxer is not a 180* V engine, sorry about that (It's pretty damn close though :P)

Ichi, that is a lot smaller than I thought, and I think the engine itself should be able to fit in front of the axle without much change, but how long does it become when you add the transmission onto the rear of the engine? That's what I mean - I think it's going to be hard for Subaru to fit both the Engine and Transmission in front of the axle without major changes.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Snaps

70NYD, you're right, the Boxer is not a 180* V engine, sorry about that (It's pretty damn close though :P)

Ichi, that is a lot smaller than I thought, and I think the engine itself should be able to fit in front of the axle without much change, but how long does it become when you add the transmission onto the rear of the engine? That's what I mean - I think it's going to be hard for Subaru to fit both the Engine and Transmission in front of the axle without major changes.

IDK, current STI tranny and my Impreza tranny is totally different tranny, so I can't say (even though it still bolt on without problem). I think mine is about 3~4 ft... 4.5 ft max. I know for sure it doesn't have 5 ft, cuz I remember tilting the engine and tranny up and it wasn't that tall. Also tranny kinda drop lower than engine too. I can't find good pic, but where engine and tranny connect is the highest and few inches later it drop 5~7 inches to line up w cross-member.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

IDK, current STI tranny and my Impreza tranny is totally different tranny, so I can't say (even though it still bolt on without problem). I think mine is about 3~4 ft... 4.5 ft max. I know for sure it doesn't have 5 ft, cuz I remember tilting the engine and tranny up and it wasn't that tall. Also tranny kinda drop lower than engine too. I can't find good pic, but where engine and tranny connect is the highest and few inches later it drop 5~7 inches to line up w cross-member.

The STI swap requires an automatic transmission's driveshaft, so the 6 speed is only about as long as the base automatic.

As for if it's a new gen 2.0L and no longer an EJ. If it's based on an EZ30 with 2 cylinders chopped off then it may be even shorter than the EJ? My understanding is that the EG33 is an EJ22 with 2 more cylinders (basically...) and that when it comes to swapping in Subaru H6s the EZ30 is noticeably shorter than the EG33 and easier to fit when cramming it into a GC Impreza for example.

When it comes to crossmembers Toyota does weird things. For example the JZ series motors have different oil pans that need to be matched to the different crossmembers of the car it's going into. Aristo is front sump pan and Supra is rear sump, so to put a 2JZ Aristo motor into a Supra you need to swap pans. But the motors can bolt in no problem. It's just a pan clearance issue. I've heard with the 1UZFE there are 3 different sump locations depending on if it's in a LS400, SC400 or JDM Crown (or whatever the big super-Toyota limo thing is...)

What I was thinking for the FT/R-86/S was if the motor needs to be moved a bit forward for AWD application a different crossmember might be needed to clear the new oil pan location (even if it's only moved 6 inches for example).

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The STI swap requires an automatic transmission's driveshaft, so the 6 speed is only about as long as the base automatic.

As for if it's a new gen 2.0L and no longer an EJ. If it's based on an EZ30 with 2 cylinders chopped off then it may be even shorter than the EJ? My understanding is that the EG33 is an EJ22 with 2 more cylinders (basically...) and that when it comes to swapping in Subaru H6s the EZ30 is noticeably shorter than the EG33 and easier to fit when cramming it into a GC Impreza for example.

Yeah EG33 is EJ22 w 2 extra cylinders and EZ30 is ridiculously shorter than EG... speaking of which, instead of H4 turbo, I wanna put EZ30D H6 NA in my car. 240 plus NA... Ah~ I can only dream of what can be done to that EZ engine...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Yeah EG33 is EJ22 w 2 extra cylinders and EZ30 is ridiculously shorter than EG... speaking of which, instead of H4 turbo, I wanna put EZ30D H6 NA in my car. 240 plus NA... Ah~ I can only dream of what can be done to that EZ engine...

I believe I already complained about my lack of unlimited budget. When I see stuff like this, I get even more depressed.




My fantasy daily driver would be something like this in a GF (? First gen Impreza wagon), through a 6 speed.

When am I going to win the damn lottery...

[Matador]

I doubt Subaru will make an awd version, but it they do, i doubt the engine will be in front of the axle. You guys are so afraid to think outside the box.



Engine is completely behind the axle

[djohnson]

Heres a couple pix of a WRX transmission. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing one in person, but it appears as though the front axles mount within 8-10 inches of the motor.