Subaru's FT-86 Version still alive and coming confirms Automotive News

[Snaps]

I can't say I have seen that before... How much of the original Legacy Chassis is used in that? I know the Legacy is already AWD, but that engine looks awfully low to be stock (it isn't, right?)

I just don't see how Subaru could possibly make the FT86 AWD with it's current RWD engine and drivetrain setup. Unless the current setup already has room for AWD, which I doubt. Adding AWD to the current layout would casue everything else to be raised (hood, bumper - because of the hood, etc.), which would mean Subaru would have to use different chassis parts, which means it would completely ruin the whole idea of doing a joint effort with Toyota. If they had to charge another $5K on top of the FT86 price to do that, I don't think it would be worth it, just for AWD? Add another $5K for the supposed Turbo Subaru version and you have a pretty expensive car compared to the FT86.

Edit: I'm not saying Subaru can't do it, in any way, I'm just saying it would not be wise to do, becasue of the added price and the added complexity of converting it from a system that is already RWD.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

and now, it's SUPER Legacy. lol



It's can be done, just like that legacy I posted. Engine is way way way behind the front axle w way way way low to the ground. Before they made it into FR, it was AWD.

Well they've already done it. I think the point is, if it's going to be AWD there is no point for it being a joint venture with Toyota. Just do an Impreza coupe. Not hard.

Damn I love this pic...

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Snaps

I can't say I have seen that before... How much of the original Legacy Chassis is used in that? I know the Legacy is already AWD, but that engine looks awfully low to be stock (it isn't, right?)

I just don't see how Subaru could possibly make the FT86 AWD with it's current RWD engine and drivetrain setup. Unless the current setup already has room for AWD, which I doubt. Adding AWD to the current layout would casue everything else to be raised (hood, bumper - because of the hood, etc.), which would mean Subaru would have to use different chassis parts, which means it would completely ruin the whole idea of doing a joint effort with Toyota. If they had to charge another $5K on top of the FT86 price to do that, I don't think it would be worth it, just for AWD? Add another $5K for the supposed Turbo Subaru version and you have a pretty expensive car compared to the FT86.

I'm sorry, how did you get the idea that there's no space? We're not exact sure where engine is currently sitting. There's tons and tons of article about where engine sit, but there's not exact info on this (correct me if I'm wrong). Ideal is having the engine set behind the front axle (or at least on top of it)... but no one saw the pic of under the hood (other then one of GT5 vid). Also hood will be raised few mm, cm or whatever, do to safety crap.

As for $5k isn't much. Lexus IS RWD & AWD difference is bout $3k~$4k-ish (depends on where you live). It's just my estimation. Adding AWD w WRX turbo for extra $5k~$6k? I don't think that's not a bad deal.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Well they've already done it. I think the point is, if it's going to be AWD there is no point for it being a joint venture with Toyota. Just do an Impreza coupe. Not hard.

Damn I love this pic...

Every true. But at the same time, why gotta be RWD only? Difference between Toyota and Subaru ver gonna be 2 Liter NA vs 2.5 Liter Turbo, how many people gonna go for 2.5 Turbo? Yes, there's still be NA fan that will go for Toyota (prob I'm one of em), but I can say 2/3 of em gonna for for Subaru.

Just in my view, I don't see the profit for Toyota to make 2 RWD only cars and one company been NA and other company having bigger engine w turbo is fair. Wouldn't be more profitable to make RWD & AWD and NA & Tubo? Toyota been RWD, NA & Turbo and Subaru been AWD, NA & Turbo... but you know, I'm not expert on sales or those kind of things so I'm pretty sure I'm wrong.

edit: As for the pic concept coupe Impreza WRX STI, I'm not too fan of it. Just the face doesn't look right to me. I prefer this kind of coupe

[Snaps]

I got the idea because that's the whole idea behind using the boxer engine, it means the engine can be mounted low, which is great for handling and for a low centre of gravity. Porsche has known, and used this for years.

The Lexus IS is hardly a sports car, it's a sports Sedan (and that's only if you're talking about the IS-F)... The engine wouldn't be mounted as low as possible like it is in a sports car.

You have to agree it just doesn't make any sense to convert a car that's RWD to AWD, when Subaru already has a car that fills that spot... They would be better off shortening the chassis of the WRX and making it a coupe than going into a brand new car just to come out with the same thing...

[Dimman]

Going to AWD could involve different front crossmember and/or engine/transmission mounts. (Depending on original placement.) Whether the engineering and tooling dollars get spent, we will see.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Snaps

I got the idea because that's the whole idea behind using the boxer engine, it means the engine can be mounted low, which is great for handling and for a low centre of gravity. Porsche has known, and used this for years.

The Lexus IS is hardly a sports car, it's a sports Sedan (and that's only if you're talking about the IS-F)... The engine wouldn't be mounted as low as possible like it is in a sports car.

You have to agree it just doesn't make any sense to convert a car that's RWD to AWD, when Subaru already has a car that fills that spot... They would be better off shortening the chassis of the WRX and making it a coupe than going into a brand new car just to come out with the same thing...

Yes, I agree that V engine isn't low as H engine. Why doesn't make sense to convert a car that's RWD to AWD? But why company make RWD into AWD? Not only Toyota, but Nissan and other companies are doing it.

What do you mean by "Subaru already has a car that fills that spot"? Subaru make double and triple of different cars to fill the one spot. Outback is good example. There's already a Forrester (5dr AWD), why they need to make Legacy Outback, Impreza XV (US: Impreza Outback)? Yes, Legacy Outback is bigger one of em all, but in general, you're looking at pretty much different cars that fill same spot.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Going to AWD could involve different front crossmember and/or engine/transmission mounts. (Depending on original placement.) Whether the engineering and tooling dollars get spent, we will see.

$5k~$6k per car isn't good enough? They already know how to do it and done it before (limited in GT anyways). My bet is on different tran mount and set up on tran.

Oh I know, I'm totally wrong. Just reading everyone saying "Only RWD" makes me wanna become black-sheep of the group and say "Why not AWD too?" Yes, I know that's jack @ss move, but I had to do it

BTW: Off-subject, I'm still waiting on your update on off-subject post of yours.

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Yes, I agree that V engine isn't low as H engine. Why doesn't make sense to convert a car that's RWD to AWD? But why company make RWD into AWD? Not only Toyota, but Nissan and other companies are doing it.

Compared to a Boxer engine (180* V-engine), a 'normal' V engine is far easier to convert to AWD, there is a lot more room underneath, and to the sides of the engine block to convert to add a diff and driveshaft.

Whereas a Boxer engine takes up a lot of space in a horizontal plane, it has a very small vertical component compared to a V engine. This means there is less room on the sides of the engine for the driveshaft and diff (don't forget, most AWD systems cause the front driveshaft and diff to be offset, ie. not in the centre of the front axle.). For subaru to convert a RWD Boxer setup to an AWD Boxer setup the engine will almost certainly need to be raised to make room for the front driveshaft and diff, because of the design of a boxer. This will mean the hood will need to be raised, the hood mountings will need to be raised, the front bumper will need to be raised.... You get the point, and I'm just repeating myself now.

Once again, I'm not saying Subaru can't do it, they could, but it would be far more work than it's worth, and would defeat the purpose of the project being a joint cheap venture with Toyota.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Compared to a Boxer engine (180* V-engine), a 'normal' V engine is far easier to convert to AWD, there is a lot more room underneath, and to the sides of the engine block to convert to add a diff and driveshaft.

Whereas a Boxer engine takes up a lot of space in a horizontal plane, it has a very small vertical component compared to a V engine. This means there is less room on the sides of the engine for the driveshaft and diff (don't forget, most AWD systems cause the front driveshaft and diff to be offset, ie. not in the centre of the front axle.). For subaru to convert a RWD Boxer setup to an AWD Boxer setup the engine will almost certainly need to be raised to make room for the front driveshaft and diff, because of the design of a boxer. This will mean the hood will need to be raised, the hood mountings will need to be raised, the front bumper will need to be raised.... You get the point, and I'm just repeating myself now.

Once again, I'm not saying Subaru can't do it, they could, but it would be far more work than it's worth, and would defeat the purpose of the project being a joint cheap venture with Toyota.

I see your point and it WOULD be true, IF engine is mounted on top or behind the front axle, but like I said before. Who said/saw this FT86 gonna have engine mounted on top or behind of front axle? I haven't seen any pic of where engine is mounted. If you have the pic, please I wanna see it.

Once again, for Subaru to make this car AWD, why Toyota gonna loose a profit? Subaru is the one wasting their money, not Toyota. Yes, Toyota own 15~20% of Subaru but not whole entire Subaru. Subaru still can do whatever they want. Being in a joint cheap venture w Toyota, Subaru HAVE TO follow exactly as Toyota? Toyota can say "Sure go for it, but we're not going to waste our money."

Like I said before, from current rumor and info we have, Toyota 2 Liter NA vs Subaru 2.5 Liter Turbo. Possible of G's Turbo ver. Still 2 Liter Turbo vs 2.5 Liter Turbo (Some Subaru owner knows 2 Liter vs 2.5 Liter is hellova a lot of difference) and we don't even know US and other outside country of Japan can get G's FT86. Which one ppl gonna buy more? My bet is on Subaru. Now, Which company gonna loose more profit?

Look, my point isn't about Subaru WILL make AWD of this car. My point is Subaru CAN make AWD of this car.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Compared to a Boxer engine (180* V-engine), a 'normal' V engine is far easier to convert to AWD, there is a lot more room underneath, and to the sides of the engine block to convert to add a diff and driveshaft.

Whereas a Boxer engine takes up a lot of space in a horizontal plane, it has a very small vertical component compared to a V engine. This means there is less room on the sides of the engine for the driveshaft and diff (don't forget, most AWD systems cause the front driveshaft and diff to be offset, ie. not in the centre of the front axle.). For subaru to convert a RWD Boxer setup to an AWD Boxer setup the engine will almost certainly need to be raised to make room for the front driveshaft and diff, because of the design of a boxer. This will mean the hood will need to be raised, the hood mountings will need to be raised, the front bumper will need to be raised.... You get the point, and I'm just repeating myself now.

Once again, I'm not saying Subaru can't do it, they could, but it would be far more work than it's worth, and would defeat the purpose of the project being a joint cheap venture with Toyota.

For the AWD design that Subaru uses there is no height change requirements. Think of a 'normal' RWD transmission with two axles sticking out the sides of it at the front. There is no front-driveshaft to a separate front diff like many other AWD systems, it's all inside the transmission case. Limit on that is where the motor has to be mounted because of it.

Ichi: as for the $5k+ for the AWD option, I was thinking more along the lines of tooling costs. IF the motor would need to be relocated forward and therefore need the cross-member/mounts changes that is a LOT of extra money for tooling at the factory. And that defeats the cost-saving reasons for sharing the design. That is my reasoning behind the no-AWD thinking.

[Snaps]

Ichitaka, I have no pictures of the engine mounting, obviously, as none of us do... But take one look at the side profile view of the FT86 photo's, the front axle is far too far forward - there is no way they will be able to fit a radiator, along with a Boxer engine, with all of the extra electrical (I assume) fans, belts, pulleys, etc. for all of the alternator, water pump, etc. in there with the engine still being completely in front of the front axle. That area is VERY small...

Dimman, I suppose that could work, but remember you would have to fit the block and transmission IN FRONT of the front axle for that to be doable, and once again, from the current pictures we have, there just isn't room for it along with everything else that needs to be in there.

I've included a picture for you guys to look at.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Ichitaka, I have no pictures of the engine mounting, obviously, as none of us do... But take one look at the side profile view of the FT86 photo's, the front axle is far too far forward - there is no way they will be able to fit a radiator, along with a Boxer engine, with all of the extra electrical (I assume) fans, belts, pulleys, etc. for all of the alternator, water pump, etc. in there with the engine still being completely in front of the front axle. That area is VERY small...

Dimman, I suppose that could work, but remember you would have to fit the block and transmission IN FRONT of the front axle for that to be doable, and once again, from the current pictures we have, there just isn't room for it along with everything else that needs to be in there.

I've included a picture for you guys to look at.

Err... I've included a quote for you to read.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Also with the Subaru AWD system, the entire motor must be forward of the front axles. This is the biggest issue that I see. In the FT/R-86/S the motor will likely be completely behind the front axles for balance (look at the design very forward wheels with little front overhang).

Basically what I was getting at with the crossmember talk is that they would need to make a different one in order to shift the motor forward. Bumper and bumper beam as well. Also a longer driveshaft as the transmission and diff will then be further apart, etc... A bunch of changes that defeat the economic reasons of the shared platform.

Ichi's saying it can be done, not necessarily that it will be done.

I'm just saying it would be too expensive to be done.

We're talking the same language.

Edit: Both me and Ichi are Subaru owners so we are pretty familiar with the motor layout, AWD system etc... And these debates are more about killing time between official news...

[chulooz]

For the AWD design that Subaru uses there is no height change requirements. Think of a 'normal' RWD transmission with two axles sticking out the sides of it at the front. There is no front-driveshaft to a separate front diff like many other AWD systems, it's all inside the transmission case. Limit on that is where the motor has to be mounted because of it.

Ichi: as for the $5k+ for the AWD option, I was thinking more along the lines of tooling costs. IF the motor would need to be relocated forward and therefore need the cross-member/mounts changes that is a LOT of extra money for tooling at the factory. And that defeats the cost-saving reasons for sharing the design. That is my reasoning behind the no-AWD thinking.

I think that "IF" is key in whether or not there will be an all wheel drive system.

Im going to go out of my way to say that subaru will offer an AWD variant which will be a huge factor in the sales margin between the two marques.