Header and tune Decision

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

That's a sound approach if you can get to that point (Min timing for best torque). But on pump gas (and with high compression or turbo engines), you will run into detonation before that at most engine speeds. At which time the knock sensors will start to do their job and retard timing. So typically, one tunes up to this point on how much torque each advance increment is worth. At higher engine speeds, each degree can be worth big gains. So retarding 2 degrees from an ever-moving knock threshold isn't the best approach if you want something close to optimal performance. The mistake a lot of tuners make is that they dial things in exclusively on a dyno. And in a dyno room that doesn't have the best ventilation. So they are tuning in an environment that you will never see on the street. So once the car its the real world and breathes fresh air, it runs leaner than desired. Which is probably why they adopted the "retard 2 degree" rule. When the rule should really be "add a bit extra fuel"

Thanks for the clear explanation, and that's an interesting way of looking at it. I did have a follow-up question for you, but I'll send it by PM to avoid thread-jacking.

[FR-S Matt]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

Custom tuned, you will get the same exact result running OFT as you will any other platform (ecutek included). And I really don't believe there is more than a few hp left in our OTS tunes to be extracted from custom tuning.

Please post me a dyno of someone using OFT + OFH where they had consistent results of 196-200 whp on 93 octane. I have yet to see it.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

I had a buddy remote tune my car on Ecutek and it runs amazing. All street pulls and I did probably about ~20 logs for him. Amazing what technology can do these days..

Show me dyno pulls of of your car with his tune, at least 5 pulls for consistency.

[FR-S Matt]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Show me dyno pulls of of your car with his tune, at least 5 pulls for consistency.

You paying for it?

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

You paying for it?

Nah, I am totally broke Well, nothing disposable for your entertainment.

Just thought you would have some sort of validation for speaking with such authority.

[Sportsguy83]

I continue to scratch my head why would anyone pay 500 bucks on a rudimentary flashing device when the exact same thing can be achieved with a tractrix cable that can be had used for around $100 bucks. Boggles my mind...

Header wise, I would go with the Tomei.

Tune, Ecutek based on features and more tools for tuner.

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

I continue to scratch my head why would anyone pay 500 bucks on a rudimentary flashing device when the exact same thing can be achieved with a tractrix cable that can be had used for around $100 bucks. Boggles my mind...

Header wise, I would go with the Tomei.

Tune, Ecutek based on features and more tools for tuner.

The "rudimentary" flashing device allows you to monitor/datalog/flash/read without the use of a laptop. This comes in handy since one doesn't always have one in the car. I know this applies to me, and I tune for a living. It also comes with a good deal of support. The flashing protocol is also bulletproof which means that even the biggest mistakes don't result into a bricked ECU. Also, next generation of maps will not be released in standard .bin format. Still open and fully editable but the format will change to reduce the size of each file. Of course, new functions and features will be added in the future. A basic cable it isn't.

I think the biggest reason that people buy OFTs is because we actually support this market. If they didn't, we wouldn't have the means to provide people with free open tunes that almost everybody uses.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash

The "rudimentary" flashing device allows you to monitor/datalog/flash/read without the use of a laptop. This comes in handy since one doesn't always have one in the car. I know this applies to me, and I tune for a living. It also comes with a good deal of support. The flashing protocol is also bulletproof which means that even the biggest mistakes don't result into a bricked ECU. Also, next generation of maps will not be released in standard .bin format. Still open and fully editable but the format will change to reduce the size of each file. Of course, new functions and features will be added in the future. A basic cable it isn't.

I think the biggest reason that people buy OFTs is because we actually support this market. If they didn't, we wouldn't have the means to provide people with free open tunes that almost everybody uses.

I'll give you you support the platform, that is great and thank you for that.

I think your device is great for "Dumbing down" the flashing process, making it "one click" easy for the general population.

Now about all other stuff.

You still need a laptop to modify the tune, so if you are doing a street tune/dyno tune, you still need to take the laptop for you.

I've spent months tuning my car nightly, and the least of my concerns was bringing the laptop with me.

The flashing time is leaps and bounds faster in other solutions, which matters when tuning a car, not just loading a canned tune.

Anyone and everyone today has a laptop.

If someone does not want to bring a laptop, $100 used Tactrix cable, less than $200 used Dell Venue Pro 8 and voila, tuning tablet for around $300. Which to be fair is harder/more involved to use than the OFT but still not rocket science either just a matter of following steps.

Lastly, I respect anyone who see the value in one click tune and it being worth $500. Nothing wrong with that. My post mainly refers to people who actually buy OFT because it's "cheaper".

No knock on your device, facts are just facts.

[Shiv@Openflash]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

I'll give you you support the platform, that is great and thank you for that.

I think your device is great for "Dumbing down" the flashing process, making it "one click" easy for the general population.

Now about all other stuff.

You still need a laptop to modify the tune, so if you are doing a street tune/dyno tune, you still need to take the laptop for you.

I've spent months tuning my car nightly, and the least of my concerns was bringing the laptop with me.

The flashing time is leaps and bounds faster in other solutions, which matters when tuning a car, not just loading a canned tune.

Anyone and everyone today has a laptop.

If someone does not want to bring a laptop, $100 used Tactrix cable, less than $200 used Dell Venue Pro 8 and voila, tuning tablet for around $300.

No knock on your device, facts are just facts.

The reason the flash process is bulletproof is because we write the entire file. It takes a few more minutes but it also means no unrecoverable chance for programming faults. While it's an "open source" mapping tool, we still are invested in our customers and play it safe where we can. I agree that everyone has a laptop. But not everyone wants to carry one with them in a car to do something as simple as monitor data or take a datalog. I know I don't. One reason I go through laptops so frequently is that I always have one in the car with me. It's not an easy life for them. Especially when driving this car the way it is meant to be driven. We have spent quite a bit of developing laptop based programming devices. They suit their purpose if you know what you are doing and have a stable laptop. But don't underestimate the benefits of risk-free programing using a device that simply doesn't crash, run out of batteries or overheats from prolonged exposure to direct sunlight like all laptops. And that doesn't even bring up the durability aspect of the cable itself which isn't exactly rugged by any stretch of the imagination. I've had to replace a few over the past few years tuning Evos and Subys and I don't think I'm particularly abusive.

While a cable+laptop solution might be the best fit for your needs, keep an open mind and realize that not everyone shares your same needs and priorities.

Shiv

[Akari]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

I continue to scratch my head why would anyone pay 500 bucks on a rudimentary flashing device when the exact same thing can be achieved with a tractrix cable that can be had used for around $100 bucks. Boggles my mind...

Personally I like supporting the people making open source tuning possible. Without someone spending their time to make this happen that tactrix cable would only be usable by the few with advanced tuning knowledge.

[steve99]

They are three devices/systems that suit 3 entirley different sets of customers or users.

Each has a place in the market, each has their strenghts , some require more knoledge and skil to use, some have backup and support some have almost nill.

Some you can on sell with little or no loss some you carnt

Some people are professional tuners, some are ametuer tuners some just want to flash their car and go and never look at a tuning table or log .

Buy or use the device/system that suits your needs.

All represent great value in the hands of the correct user