(Boosted) FRS vs S2000... Dezoris strikes again.

[Pekingduck]

After coming from 3 s2000, the s2000 better for track. The only real complaint I have with the twins is the power to chassis. For the people who say put money to make the twins faster you can always say as well put money to make s2000 faster

[Jyn]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This happened in Mexico.

Didn't know y'all were a part of that Mexico Racing League. I figured tracks were more y'alls thing.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jyn

Didn't know y'all were a part of that Mexico Racing League. I figured tracks were more y'alls thing.

We are non-discriminatory when it comes to testing

[poptart]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Based on that pull, I bet a TP on the s2k would effectively eliminate the advantage...

Hi, what does TP stand for ?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jaden

He's not even close to the redline on the FRS... 6600 rpm versus 8100 is the reason for the power difference.

Decrease the rotating mass on the twin and up the redline and it will do the same...

I had originally written something completely different(in the post that I asked if he was only running 4 psi) because that just didn't make any sense whatsoever.

The power that you can generate with a given FI compressor is directly related to how much air you can push(volume, not PSI) and how much timing you can run.

He's right, the e85 would definitely help out the 12.5:1 twin more than the 11:1 s2K because you can only advance the timing so much on either one. You can advance the timing more, while maintaining minimal detonation on the S2K because of the lower CR on pump gas, so you can't advance it as much more on E85 as you can with the twin because the twin can't be advanced as much on 91 as the S2K can.

IOW, you're able to advance the timing on the twin a greater amount when you switch to E85 from 91 than you can switching the S2K to E85 from 91.

With a 7400 natural redline on the twin, you should be able to reduce rotating mass via a lighter flywheel and harmonic balancer and up the redline to say 7800 and they will be much closer to each other on the same levels of boost.

When you put them both on E85 and can approximate the same timing advancement along with that, they should be almost identical in power levels for the same boost, (with the same compressor being used).

In my original post before I edited it, I asked which S2K engine he had, the 122CI or the 132 because that will make a difference too.

The more cubic inches, the more air it can gulp per revolution.

Now I've simplified this here, there are other differences involved, the VVT in both engines is different and the tune's utilization of it will vary the power levels too, so as I had said in the original unedited reply...

I'm talking out my ass here, with no direct tuner experience with the engines of either of these cars (yet) so take it for what it's worth, but on paper, the disparity should be no where near what they're seeing...

Jaden

p.s. notice that those dyno maps look almost identical until ~5400 rpm at which time they both slightly dip and then the S2K's goes right along that same initial slope but the twin's slope changes, my guess would be that that is where the timing advancement changes for the twin versus the S2K...

Wait a minute, now I'm confused, are BOTH of those maps for the S2K????

Then where is the map for the twin that is 100hp shy of the S2K????

Here's the issue: You can't safely raise the redline on the twins. You can on the S2k. The twin's valvesprings have a seated weight of 35 lbs. Push 10 psi, and now you're looking at 25. The S2k's is 87 lbs.

Do you really wanna try 8000RPM with that?

The Twin's heads do not flow. They just DO NOT flow. The weak valvesprings are an attempt to reduce drivetrain losses... the twins nose over on torque because the engine is being choked. The S2k, on the other hand, doesn't have that choke point, and will continue to make more power as you increase RPMs.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by poptart

Hi, what does TP stand for ?

Test pipe (deleting the catalytic converter). This is the major restriction on the S2000. The next restriction is the intake manifold....

That FI S2k graph i posted is with stock header, stock head, stock exhaust, stock throttlebody, stock engine (minus the FI), stock intake manifold...

[Sideways&Smiling]

Cool vid. 2005 AP2 FTW! :P

Would be nice to see him drive and talk about a forced induction S2000 too though...

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Here's the issue: You can't safely raise the redline on the twins. You can on the S2k. The twin's valvesprings have a seated weight of 35 lbs. Push 10 psi, and now you're looking at 25. The S2k's is 87 lbs.

Do you really wanna try 8000RPM with that?

The Twin's heads do not flow. They just DO NOT flow. The weak valvesprings are an attempt to reduce drivetrain losses... the twins nose over on torque because the engine is being choked. The S2k, on the other hand, doesn't have that choke point, and will continue to make more power as you increase RPMs.

Now that makes sense...
Valves are always the biggest limiting factor in making more power.

I'm working on a head design that would have fixed valves, NO SPRINGS...

I'm a ways away from even being able to prototype though...

If you'd like to talk about the design P.M. me and I'll give you my number...

Jaden

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

86 vs S2k... Owned both.


I love that feeling.. you know that feeling, that one feeling you come to know and love.

That feeling that brings you so much joy and happiness about the 86.

That feeling of...

















Walking out to your car and the seats are still in it.

Surprisingly enough, the CR seems to do fine in ultra ghetto areas, but a base S2k would get pwnd...and uh yea...the CR has seen some time in some really sketchy places. It may have been a transporter at one point in time... j/k

I'm going to say it again, the 86 is incredibly easy to drive and it's possible this car gives you a false sense of confidence. However, the 86 is also fairly difficult to drive incredibly fast because the last two to three-tenths of the car requires incredible finesse. In that sense, the engineers did a fantastic job building that into the car. It's a rewarding piece of machinery that should be appreciated by all. With the proper settings, the car's limit is very high, but is very difficult to extract without the proper skills. We hope everybody can develop this sense instead of trying to figure out what car is better.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by Jaden

FI, problem solved.


JAden

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

This.

It cost $2k & 2 hours. I do this whenever I want now. Damn I love living in the present.

My BRZ pushes 550 WHP. I still think the S2K is a better overall car. That Honda motor is engineering art.


The 86 motor has shown to be surprisingly stout, but even with that, there have been numerous failures from stock cars (as can be expected from a new platform) and there are other things still being discovered like random and without warning VVT failures.

That Honda, motor and transmission are leaps and bounds more bulletproof than our cars.

Forget about raising the Rev limiter on our cars, you are just asking for really bad trouble.

I know we all have our opinions/love/hates and I respect them all, its just IMHO, the S2K is a better overall car.

On the HP car vs. car front, I made 550 whp stock motor, and rarely take it over 500 because right then and there is the limit where you are playing russian roullete with the tranny and motor and either might pop at any time while a friend made 726 WHP on a stock S2K, detuned to 690 WHP to keep it safe.....

Let that sink in for a bit....

I know HP is not the end all be all, I'm just offering a different point of discussion since the track capabilities of the car were heavily discussed in the video.

[malave7567]

Agree with everything said about the S2000 being the better overall car... but I also have to second the fact that, of course it is, it was a higher budget vehicle than the twins with the same goal in driver feel.

[DarkSunrise]

I think it comes down to which car has the right combination of traits for your needs.

For me, having a convertible was a huge inconvenience. Half the tracks/clubs around here don't allow convertibles, and those that do require a roll bar, which limits street usage. Honda never made a coupe S2000, so that made the choice easy.

The theoretical hp/tq limits of the S2000 engine and transmission are higher, and it's easier to make power overall, but both the FR-S and S2000 will make (and handle) the maximum amount of power I'd ever be interested in making with these platforms, so it's a moot point for me.

Then there are minor things I like about the FR-S, like its foldable rear seats, gauge cluster, factory square tire setup, etc.

If there was one thing I could take from the S2000, it would be the transmission. Hands down the best shifter I've ever used. The FR-S transmission is pretty good compared to most, but can't compare to the one in the S2000.

But anyway two great cars. It's amazing that the S2000 is as competitive as it is, given how long ago it was released. Shows how good Honda was in its prime. But I suspect the answer to which is the "better" car simply comes down to what your needs are. I will say, if Honda had made an S2000 coupe, I would probably have bought one.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by CSG David

The aero is better on the 86. Stock vs. stock, the 86 will keep up with the S2000 (gap won't change) from 100-130mph.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This happened in Mexico.

I ran my stock S2000 against a stock BRZ on Sunday, also in Mexico, and I can confirm this to be true. It seems strange to have 40 more whp and not be able to pull on a BRZ at those speeds.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Walking out to your car and the seats are still in it.

I couldn't believe when I was reading the new S2K owners guide on S2ki and the fourth thing listed was Seat Locks. I was like WTF are seat locks. I am hoping that since I don't live in Cali, and the Honda craze of the mid 90s and early 2000s is over, that nobody will steal my seats.