Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[Target70]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

...With that being said, currently the Innovative Stg.1 is the least expensive "traditional" supercharger. $3700 incl. tune + est $500 - $1000 installation, total of $4200 -$4700.

The Phantom ESC with 1.5 dump upgrade and OpenFlash e85 tune will run roughly $2050 + $0 for an easy 2 hr. self-installation, total of still $2050. And you can remove it for dealer visits. Good god thanks @Robftss

Thanks for the comparasin, I like checking out the data

If you include the price of the tune in the innovate, I think you should include the price of the OFT in the Phantom kit. Unless I'm mistaken on the price of the ESC at ~$1650 + ~$200 batteries + ~$150 1.5 upgrade + $500 OFT

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Target70

Thanks for the comparasin, I like checking out the data

If you include the price of the tune in the innovate, I think you should include the price of the OFT in the Phantom kit.

Very good point, an oversight when banging out the post. I'll edit the post to include it, an OFT and lifetime free tunes are definitely worth the money.

[jflogerzi]

I think to be fair you should offer to comparisons. Apple to apples with the same gas Not everyone has access to E85.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

I think to be fair you should offer to comparisons. Apple to apples with the same gas Not everyone has access to E85.

That would be nice, but the point here was never to be fair per se.

This comparison is to show where the top end Phantom ESC + OFT OTS tuned cars compare vs. the closest "traditional SC" cars. Since E85 is a free option for OpenFlashTablet tuned cars, there's no reason not to include it. For those that do not have access to e85, there are dynos & data on the front page of this thread.

Apples to apples was never really the point since there's no way to get apples to apples on different dynos in different locations with different engine tuning objectives and different tuners. Once again, not a scientific comparison.

[Blu-by-U]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

Sorry Fenton but in all honesty I don't believe that you are capable of learning any new tricks. If you're really as addicted to torque as you claim to be, I strongly suggest that you look into larger displacement V6's and V8's rather than battery powered leaf-blowers bolted to 2L H4s! My 1968 396 SS Camaro comes to mind when you bleat about "torque".


Like you I am currently without FI but unlike you I would prefer to wait for the real thing or even forego it rather than half-ass it. Not that there's anything wrong with this half-ass ESC FI as long as you keep in mind that it is what it is. It's only when you delude yourself and try to convince others into believing that it is somehow equal to or better than the real thing that people like me will no longer be able to bite our tongues hard enough to not call you out on it.


Anyway, I'm quite certain that if you permit Nlowell to downshift his Kraftwerks boosted 86 that he will have no difficulty dispatching any half-ass ESC challenger in 0-60, 0-100, 1/8, 1/4 mile, etc. The same goes for Innovate, Jackson, Vortech, AVO, and all the rest. You really need to stick with the "we may be slower but we only cost 2/3 as much" argument since that is the only truth I've ever seen you utter.

Methinks that F_F doesn't bother to keep up with the world while he rides his Moped. Try this on for size "2017 Audi RS5 TDI Diesel", an ESC augmented turbo-diesel. Please feel free to educate yourself, @Fast_Freddy.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...e-drive-review

[silent runner]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Phantom ESC 1.5x e95 vs Innovative Stg. 1 (non-intercooled).
This is a similar comparison to @fenton 's of the Phantom ESC v. Vortech OFT300.

IMO Innovative Stg.1 is the best comparison due to cost of Supercharger kits for '86. Although, if you already own an OFT & OFH, then the OFT300 Vortech kit is a no-brainer for those looking for full-time F.I. Great job @Shiv@Openflash

With that being said, currently the Innovative Stg.1 is the least expensive "traditional" supercharger. $3700 incl. tune + est $500 - $1000 installation, total of $4200 -$4700. An experienced mechanic could probably self-install to save cash in about 8 hours. If you want to run e85 here, add another $700 -$1000 for flex fuel kit and e85 tune.

The Phantom ESC with 1.5 dump upgrade and OpenFlash e85 tune will run roughly $2600 + $0 for an easy 2 hr. self-installation, total of still $2600. And you can remove it for dealer visits. Good god thanks @Robftss


The dynos
This isn't a cherry picked Innovative Stg.1 setup I'm referencing. This as it was a generous representation of what many Innovative Stg.1 owners were getting out of the box. This is a great car, great kit, and great owner. Keep in mind , many running Innovative Stg. 1 ended up with lower WHP/WTQ numbers.


This is NOT A SCIENTIFIC COMPARISON. Merely a quick snapshot of numbers we're seen in some supercharger kits on the board. Keep in mind, once again, this isn't an individual custom tune for the Phantom ESC and Shiv's shop car. The tune was developed to be a SAFE Off-the-shelf offering for many cars. The tune on the Innovative car could have any amount of customization for it. I won't speak to it because I have no data.



Shiv's shop car 2.0B Tune for Phantom ESC e85 vs. Innovative Stg.1





Shiv's dyno OTS OpenFlashTablet 2.0 Beta tune for Phantom ESC 1.5x e85







zCarter92's Innovative Stg.1

This is a pretty darn interesting chart of numbers! Now all all really abitious person has to do is plot them both on a graph, and do a little bit of math, and area estimation, to see which system provides the overall greater area under the curves, and over-all greater output! This wouldn't provide an answer to every side-by side scenario, but it would answer one interesting question...

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by silent runner

This is a pretty darn interesting chart of numbers! Now all all really abitious person has to do is plot them both on a graph, and do a little bit of math, and area estimation, to see which system provides the overall greater area under the curves, and over-all greater output! This wouldn't provide an answer to every side-by side scenario, but it would answer one interesting question...

He pretty much already did them, just add the power figures together from 2500rpm to 7400rpm then compare the two.

[Target70]

I was going to mention that shiv's dyno was with the OFH, but I wasn't sure if zCarter92 had an aftermarket header. I looked it up and found this in his sig:

"'13 SWP BRZ 6spd Innovate Supercharged 237whp 193wtq, Borla UEL, Perrin 2.5 inch header back(catted and resonated) 3in Perrin intake, 17x9+35 RPF1s, 245/40r17 continental DWs."

I am guessing that he put down those numbers with those mods, but not sure. Anyway, If both have headers then I guess they cancel out.

[Perscitus]

Originally Posted by silent runner

This is a pretty darn interesting chart of numbers! Now all all really ambitious person has to do is plot them both on a graph, and do a little bit of math, and area estimation, to see which system provides the overall greater area under the curves, and over-all greater output! This wouldn't provide an answer to every side-by side scenario, but it would answer one interesting question...

Something like this to get started? Holy low-end ESC torque!

[shif7i7down]

Originally Posted by Perscitus

Something like this to get started? Holy low-end ESC torque!

Looks pretty good for a quick sketch, but...the esc chart should be pushed back another 250rpm, trq and whp should cross at 5252rpm.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Phantom ESC 1.5x e95 vs Innovative Stg. 1 (non-intercooled).
This is a similar comparison to @fenton 's of the Phantom ESC v. Vortech OFT300.

IMO Innovative Stg.1 is the best comparison due to cost of Supercharger kits for '86. Although, if you already own an OFT & OFH, then the OFT300 Vortech kit is a no-brainer for those looking for full-time F.I. Great job @Shiv@Openflash

With that being said, currently the Innovative Stg.1 is the least expensive "traditional" supercharger. $3700 incl. tune + est $500 - $1000 installation, total of $4200 -$4700. An experienced mechanic could probably self-install to save cash in about 8 hours. If you want to run e85 here, add another $700 -$1000 for flex fuel kit and e85 tune.

The Phantom ESC with 1.5 dump upgrade and OpenFlash e85 tune will run roughly $2600 + $0 for an easy 2 hr. self-installation, total of still $2600. And you can remove it for dealer visits. Good god thanks @Robftss


The dynos
This isn't a cherry picked Innovative Stg.1 setup I'm referencing. This as it was a generous representation of what many Innovative Stg.1 owners were getting out of the box. This is a great car, great kit, and great owner. Keep in mind , many running Innovative Stg. 1 ended up with lower WHP/WTQ numbers.


This is NOT A SCIENTIFIC COMPARISON. Merely a quick snapshot of numbers we're seen in some supercharger kits on the board. Keep in mind, once again, this isn't an individual custom tune for the Phantom ESC and Shiv's shop car. The tune was developed to be a SAFE Off-the-shelf offering for many cars. The tune on the Innovative car could have any amount of customization for it. I won't speak to it because I have no data.



Shiv's shop car 2.0B Tune for Phantom ESC e85 vs. Innovative Stg.1





Shiv's dyno OTS OpenFlashTablet 2.0 Beta tune for Phantom ESC 1.5x e85







zCarter92's Innovative Stg.1

Wow! Talk about a cherry picked apples to rotten oranges comparison!


The Innovate SC should be very easy to install in 4-6 hours, not 8. Why do you think it requires an "experienced mechanic" to install it? Looks pretty simple to me.


What shop charges $1000 for a 4-6 hour installation?


Why does Innovate require a $700-1000 flex fuel kit but your beloved ESC does not? You can't run e85 + Innovate without a flex fuel kit? Please explain.


Why would you remove the ESC for dealer visits? Are you planning to commit fraud if you damage your engine? Nice...


Why compare the ESC on e85 to Innovate on pump gas when everyone knows how octane limited the stage 1 Innovate SC is? The Innovate SC gains much more from e85 than the ESC does.


There are many Innovate dynojet results posted so why choose a Dyno Dynamics result using undisclosed measurement mode? Was the Dyno Dynamics result in normal mode or comparison mode? The difference could be as high as +/- 20%. Which was it?


Perhaps since you're using the highest dyno results ever recorded for the ESC we should do the same for the Innovate SC... to be fair, like you are.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Perscitus

Something like this to get started? Holy low-end ESC torque!

Driving around is just as impressive. @fenton isn't exaggerating when he talks about ESC torque. It feels as good as it looks for a lot less money than the next available FI kit. The limitations people grouse about don't generally show up day to day. Especially when the pluses are considered.

[DAEMANO]

Reminder

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=6736

[Fast_Freddy]

Run DAEMANO, run!!!