Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[Boofneenee]

OK. I have a series of questions I am hoping to get answers to before I make a decision. Here goes!

1. What does it drive like without engaging the boost? I understand the turbine acts as a restriction but in what rpm range? I heard from one consumer the restriction occurs in the low rpms but then I heard from another the restriction occurs at the highest rpms.

2. Does the turbine pulse DR (comes on when a negative pressure detected) work all the time and every time effectively? How close to stock does this device mirror when not active?

3. What about the tune? So the tune is made to run rich to compensate for the boost at really low rpms and i believe the timing is retarted as well. Does this same tune parameter occur all the time no matter the condition? I.e. in the absence of boost? Or does the tune create a rich condition and adjust the timing when the MAF senses air coming in? Will the tune otherwise run as an NA car without psi?

4. Talk to me about the activation of the turbine with the throttle position. I was told one must not activate it at or below 2k because it can strain the engine and cause it to stall but from a dyno I reviewed with e85 it looks like 180 tq occurs at around 2.5k rpm! My question is.. How difficult is it to throttle the pedal in a fashion that creates favorable response and power without causing harm. 2k to 2.5 k is only 500 rpms. Am I thinking about this too much?

5. How long do the batteries last?

6. Another tuner question. So let's say my batteries start to slowly die. I suspect that as a result I will not achieve the same amount of boost? Here is another simar situation.. Different temps and altitudes create less or more boost. My question, is the tune going to adjust the parameters to compensate for the change in boost or continue to spray the same fuel and timing degrees? This is more of a tuning question than phantom but its something I want to understand.

7. Is their any chance in hell that an electrical problem could develop that would cause serious electrical problems even if it was installed correctly?I keep running scenarios in my head and keep coming back to the fact this system really runs as an add on. All this power is being used to spin this turbine. I can't think of a possibility in which this massive electrical energy could some how makes its way through wiring and an ecu.

8. I'll stfu now. Thanks to anyone who takes a stab at these questions to better help me understand.

9. Ooh yes. What about heat? Let's say I am going on a long road trip and the device decides its had too much and it goes into cool down mode. Now I have no DR. Correct? Will this cause a strain because my engine is trying to suck in air through a non spinning turbine? Anyone take long road trips with this thing?

[fenton]

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

OK. I have a series of questions I am hoping to get answers to before I make a decision. Here goes!

1. What does it drive like without engaging the boost? I understand the turbine acts as a restriction but in what rpm range? I heard from one consumer the restriction occurs in the low rpms but then I heard from another the restriction occurs at the highest rpms.

2. Does the turbine pulse DR (comes on when a negative pressure detected) work all the time and every time effectively? How close to stock does this device mirror when not active?

3. What about the tune? So the tune is made to run rich to compensate for the boost at really low rpms and i believe the timing is retarted as well. Does this same tune parameter occur all the time no matter the condition? I.e. in the absence of boost? Or does the tune create a rich condition and adjust the timing when the MAF senses air coming in? Will the tune otherwise run as an NA car without psi?

4. Talk to me about the activation of the turbine with the throttle position. I was told one must not activate it at or below 2k because it can strain the engine and cause it to stall but from a dyno I reviewed with e85 it looks like 180 tq occurs at around 2.5k rpm! My question is.. How difficult is it to throttle the pedal in a fashion that creates favorable response and power without causing harm. 2k to 2.5 k is only 500 rpms. Am I thinking about this too much?

5. How long do the batteries last?

6. Another tuner question. So let's say my batteries start to slowly die. I suspect that as a result I will not achieve the same amount of boost? Here is another simar situation.. Different temps and altitudes create less or more boost. My question, is the tune going to adjust the parameters to compensate for the change in boost or continue to spray the same fuel and timing degrees? This is more of a tuning question than phantom but its something I want to understand.

7. Is their any chance in hell that an electrical problem could develop that would cause serious electrical problems even if it was installed correctly?I keep running scenarios in my head and keep coming back to the fact this system really runs as an add on. All this power is being used to spin this turbine. I can't think of a possibility in which this massive electrical energy could some how makes its way through wiring and an ecu.

8. I'll stfu now. Thanks to anyone who takes a stab at these questions to better help me understand.

9. Ooh yes. What about heat? Let's say I am going on a long road trip and the device decides its had too much and it goes into cool down mode. Now I have no DR. Correct? Will this cause a strain because my engine is trying to suck in air through a non spinning turbine? Anyone take long road trips with this thing?

1. The system drives mostly the same as stock with the system completely off. The reason I say mostly is because the compressor does restrict about 10 HP from 6000 rpm onward. You will quickly see that you are never past 5000rpm without being WOT and thus adding boost.

2. Yes DR works essentially all the time when a negative pressure is detected. It is actually about 5 to 10 HP more than stock on the up pulse and never worse than stock on the down pulse once above 4k rpm. Lower than 4k rpm you may drop a couple HP below stock until the system pulse again but you only see this on a Dyno, you would never really feel it. It gives a really nice boost at tip in....makes the car very eager to rev. Do you REALLY need it? That's subjective.....I am currently testing something that doesn't have DR and I don't miss it that much.

3. The tune is dependent on engine load. The short answer to your question is that it runs in NA mode when not in boost. The load is so much less that the tune actually leans out and adds more timing. When you hit boost again it goes back to being nice and safe.

4. The thing I was advising people not to do was go WOT at 1700 rpm to try and get the highest boost numbers. This usually meant full boost at 2k rpm and the engine is incredibly inefficient at this range so it can't really do much but strain all the components in the engine. Starting going WOT in 1st or 2nd at 2k rpm is not a problem as you will be quite a bit higher before full boost is achieved. In 3 I would shot for 2500rpm for going WOT. In 4th to 6th it is best to go WOT at 3k and above otherwise you are lugging the engine for quite some time.

5.Rob has been turning the batteries in his system for 2 years and still reaches the same boost. I have had mine for a long time too and font have any problems. Yes after 5 years of hard use it will probably be time to buy some new ones for 80 bucks....this is just me guess on the life of the battery....rob may be able to confirm more. Needless to say they do not degrade after 2 years.

6. All if this is calculated in the load cells. You will be fine with less boost. Altitude is a weird one. If you are really high up you will probably run richer than those at sea level on the OtS tune. I run a little richer but its still damn fast.

7. Rob has the car completely protected behind a sufficient fuse. You cannot fey your ecu by using boost.

8. Lol.

9.Don't worry about long road trips. There is constant air moving over the controller and engine to keep it very cool. Unless you are doing a 2 mile on the salt flats you have nothing to worry about on long trips. If the thermal does trip in the city under heavy use Dr still works and as does boost....just at a slightly reduced capacity to keep everything safe.

Good questions. Hope these answers clear things up for you.

[nlowell]

Hey all, I'm actually having a hard time writing this post because I've been so incredibly happy with and proud to be part of the Phantom ESC innovation. I, however, have decided to go a different route. I got a great deal on a Kraftwerks Supercharger. While it will be more effective for me at the track, I can tell you that spending TWICE what I have invested on the Phantom really stings (not to mention the low end torque I will not have!). It makes me really appreciate what Rob has created for the community.

Anyways, I want to see my system go to a good home. I'm trying to find someone in SoCal that is interested so that I can include the batteries, help them install everything, and make sure any questions are answered. I want my baby to go to a good home I'll post this on the FS thread but hit me up if you are interested.

I will continue to follow the progress on this...who knows...maybe I'll be back someday

[TM]

I'll take a stab at some of these...

Originally Posted by Boofneenee

OK. I have a series of questions I am hoping to get answers to before I make a decision. Here goes!

1. What does it drive like without engaging the boost? I understand the turbine acts as a restriction but in what rpm range? I heard from one consumer the restriction occurs in the low rpms but then I heard from another the restriction occurs at the highest rpms.

It drives pretty much the same as NA without boost. DR pretty much negates the restriction that the turbine creates.

Here's @Jac's dyno with DR-only vs. stock:

Originally Posted by Jac

ESC Super Pursuit Mode (red) vs. stock + stock map (both with front pipe/CBE/intake filter)
Was surprised to see peak numbers were pretty much the exact same with SPM actually producing less low end torque until 4K.

the line is choppy because of the DR engaging and dis-engaging, but in real world application, you don't feel the choppiness.

2. Does the turbine pulse DR (comes on when a negative pressure detected) work all the time and every time effectively? How close to stock does this device mirror when not active?

It should be pretty effective. There's a vacuum tube from the intake inlet tube (between the compressor and the engine) to the controller that detects the negative pressure.

3. What about the tune? So the tune is made to run rich to compensate for the boost at really low rpms and i believe the timing is retarted as well. Does this same tune parameter occur all the time no matter the condition? I.e. in the absence of boost? Or does the tune create a rich condition and adjust the timing when the MAF senses air coming in? Will the tune otherwise run as an NA car without psi?

No, the tune will adjust based on whether or not the ESC is activated. I don't know too much about it, so I'll let someone have it go at this one. Don't mark me on this, but I do remember Shiv saying that the tune detects whether or not the ESC is activated based on load. It will be good even when you're not on boost (and power-wise, refer to Jac's dyno above; and little less torque under 4k rpm but similar torque above that.

4. Talk to me about the activation of the turbine with the throttle position. I was told one must not activate it at or below 2k because it can strain the engine and cause it to stall but from a dyno I reviewed with e85 it looks like 180 tq occurs at around 2.5k rpm! My question is.. How difficult is it to throttle the pedal in a fashion that creates favorable response and power without causing harm. 2k to 2.5 k is only 500 rpms. Am I thinking about this too much?

This should apply to any application, even when you car is NA. I wouldn't WOT anywhere below 2.5k rpm, whether or not I have the ESC system in my car. Going WOT at very low rpm ranges may stall any car. The beauty of the electric supercharger is that it creates gobs of torque at the low RPM range. Looking at Shiv's e85 dyno, it seems like he went WOT at 2.5k rpm as well. And in 6th gear (overdrive), I wouldn't even WOT in any rpm range.

5. How long do the batteries last?

Here is the answer from @Sojhinn's FAQ (I think it's based on the 1x dump pack):

How long can the system run?

The system is completely run on the dump batteries. You can run the ESC for approximately two minutes straight before the voltage drops below the minimum required to run the motor. However it is very difficult to run the system for that long in one sitting on the road. As soon as you let off the throttle the system begins recharging and is typically available for a full discharge within moments.

6. Another tuner question. So let's say my batteries start to slowly die. I suspect that as a result I will not achieve the same amount of boost? Here is another simar situation.. Different temps and altitudes create less or more boost. My question, is the tune going to adjust the parameters to compensate for the change in boost or continue to spray the same fuel and timing degrees? This is more of a tuning question than phantom but its something I want to understand.

Not sure about this one. I'll let Shiv or someone more knowledgeable answer this. It shouldn't be a problem, since the tune is mapped based on MAF. Timing and fuel is based on airflow. More boost = more airflow = more timing and fuel (???). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to be spreading mis-information!

7. Is their any chance in hell that an electrical problem could develop that would cause serious electrical problems even if it was installed correctly?I keep running scenarios in my head and keep coming back to the fact this system really runs as an add on. All this power is being used to spin this turbine. I can't think of a possibility in which this massive electrical energy could some how makes its way through wiring and an ecu.

Don't know, but that's what fuses are for? Anyway, the whole ESC system is powered through the dump pack (two extra batteries next to the smaller starter battery). The dump pack is recharged by the alternator via the controller.

8. I'll stfu now. Thanks to anyone who takes a stab at these questions to better help me understand.

Whew, finally done.. wait, nevermind

9. Ooh yes. What about heat? Let's say I am going on a long road trip and the device decides its had too much and it goes into cool down mode. Now I have no DR. Correct? Will this cause a strain because my engine is trying to suck in air through a non spinning turbine? Anyone take long road trips with this thing?

If the controller overheats, it will go into a couple of fail safe modes; thermal charger protection mode, thermal motor protection mode, etc. to protect the system. Take a look at the fail safe explanation at the button of this install guide: http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/..._install2c.pdf

On a long road trip, you wouldn't really be activating the ESC constantly (or maybe you would?), so it shouldn't overheat. You're in MA, so it shouldn't be a problem. DR alone will not cause it to overheat.

And.. I knew someone would beat me this finishing this LOL

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by nlowell

Hey all, I'm actually having a hard time writing this post because I've been so incredibly happy with and proud to be part of the Phantom ESC innovation. I, however, have decided to go a different route. I got a great deal on a Kraftwerks Supercharger. While it will be more effective for me at the track, I can tell you that spending TWICE what I have invested on the Phantom really stings (not to mention the low end torque I will not have!). It makes me really appreciate what Rob has created for the community.

Anyways, I want to see my system go to a good home. I'm trying to find someone in SoCal that is interested so that I can include the batteries, help them install everything, and make sure any questions are answered. I want my baby to go to a good home I'll post this on the FS thread but hit me up if you are interested.

I will continue to follow the progress on this...who knows...maybe I'll be back someday

Meh.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by nlowell

Hey all, I'm actually having a hard time writing this post because I've been so incredibly happy with and proud to be part of the Phantom ESC innovation. I, however, have decided to go a different route. I got a great deal on a Kraftwerks Supercharger. While it will be more effective for me at the track, I can tell you that spending TWICE what I have invested on the Phantom really stings (not to mention the low end torque I will not have!). It makes me really appreciate what Rob has created for the community.

Anyways, I want to see my system go to a good home. I'm trying to find someone in SoCal that is interested so that I can include the batteries, help them install everything, and make sure any questions are answered. I want my baby to go to a good home I'll post this on the FS thread but hit me up if you are interested.

I will continue to follow the progress on this...who knows...maybe I'll be back someday

You have been a valuable contributor! Thanks for everything you have helped with in regards to the phantom system.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by nlowell

Hey all, I'm actually having a hard time writing this post because I've been so incredibly happy with and proud to be part of the Phantom ESC innovation. I, however, have decided to go a different route. I got a great deal on a Kraftwerks Supercharger. While it will be more effective for me at the track, I can tell you that spending TWICE what I have invested on the Phantom really stings (not to mention the low end torque I will not have!). It makes me really appreciate what Rob has created for the community.

Anyways, I want to see my system go to a good home. I'm trying to find someone in SoCal that is interested so that I can include the batteries, help them install everything, and make sure any questions are answered. I want my baby to go to a good home I'll post this on the FS thread but hit me up if you are interested.

I will continue to follow the progress on this...who knows...maybe I'll be back someday

Make sure to hit up a comparison run with sojhinn when you get it installed

3k rolling start in 3rd

[nlowell]

Originally Posted by fenton

Make sure to hit up a comparison run with sojhinn when you get it installed

3k rolling start in 3rd

No way! I think I know what the outcome will be and it'd make me cry. The ESC is great as a DD.

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by nlowell

No way! I think I know what the outcome will be and it'd make me cry. The ESC is great as a DD.

Yeah we will do a comparison. He's breaking my heart though. I feel like he's breaking up with us.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Yeah we will do a comparison. He's breaking my heart though. I feel like he's breaking up with us.

LOL

[nlowell]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Yeah we will do a comparison. He's breaking my heart though. I feel like he's breaking up with us.

It's not you..it's me...

And you guys aren't getting rid of me that easily

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by fenton

Make sure to hit up a comparison run with sojhinn when you get it installed

3k rolling start in 3rd

Don't you guys know how to downshift?

[fenton]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

Don't you guys know how to downshift?

No can you come teach me, I'm addicted to torque and I don't know how to quit. It's called testing the whole power band. You know... The thing that people use on the street.

Of course the kraftwerks has more top end, we all know that. The interesting thing is to see if it can make up the difference on the area under the curve.

Have you even got FI yet Freddy? or are you just living vicariously though everyone on the forum? Its not just us either.... You have nothing but positive posts in other threads too lol.

As I have said before I always enjoy it when you stop in. It's good for another couple thousand views of everyone watching your shenanigans.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by fenton

No can you come teach me, I'm addicted to torque and I don't know how to quit. It's called testing the whole power band. You know... The thing that people use on the street.

Of course the kraftwerks has more top end, we all know that. The interesting thing is to see if it can make up the difference on the area under the curve.

Have you even got FI yet Freddy? or are you just living vicariously though everyone on the forum? Its not just us either.... You have nothing but positive posts in other threads too lol.

As I have said before I always enjoy it when you stop in. It's good for another couple thousand views of everyone watching your shenanigans.

Sorry Fenton but in all honesty I don't believe that you are capable of learning any new tricks. If you're really as addicted to torque as you claim to be, I strongly suggest that you look into larger displacement V6's and V8's rather than battery powered leaf-blowers bolted to 2L H4s! My 1968 396 SS Camaro comes to mind when you bleat about "torque".


Like you I am currently without FI but unlike you I would prefer to wait for the real thing or even forego it rather than half-ass it. Not that there's anything wrong with this half-ass ESC FI as long as you keep in mind that it is what it is. It's only when you delude yourself and try to convince others into believing that it is somehow equal to or better than the real thing that people like me will no longer be able to bite our tongues hard enough to not call you out on it.


Anyway, I'm quite certain that if you permit Nlowell to downshift his Kraftwerks boosted 86 that he will have no difficulty dispatching any half-ass ESC challenger in 0-60, 0-100, 1/8, 1/4 mile, etc. The same goes for Innovate, Jackson, Vortech, AVO, and all the rest. You really need to stick with the "we may be slower but we only cost 2/3 as much" argument since that is the only truth I've ever seen you utter.