Do you currently have a Kraftwerks Supercharger installed? I have a few questions

[Model Citizen]

I had an issue with my kw belt about a month ago. My kit was purchased around january so it was relatively one of the earlier kits, and has seen a ton of abuse and miles.

Within about a day cj@kw replied that there was a cog issue, it would be warrantied and id be sent replacement cogs and belt.

Due to poor luck and timing i allready had an autocross and 2 track days lined up through that weekend. At that point the car had allready seen 150+ autox runs and a couple track days.

Snapped the belt at the autox, drove home put on spare and went to the 1st of 2 track days. Killed the spare belt at the end of that day, drove home an hour fine cruising at highway speeds. Reflashed to stock and put back on stock map, drove back for the next day, ran all 4 sessions with no belt, drove home, and of course received all the replacement items the next day iirc. The new cogs did have a different format of labeling.

Anyway, the support from kw was a+ and the divorced belt system worked phenominanly in a real world oh shit situation.

[CSG Mike]

I'll just stick to the facts, without any opinions or editorial.

Belt slip/snap
- There have been zero known cases of belts snapping or slipping with the Jackson Racing kit. We all know that owners with issues will VERY quickly voice it.

Oil coolers for the respective kits
- KW Oil cooler size (per their website): 285mmx 140mmx 50mm (1995000mm²)
- Jackson Racing oil cooler size: 15.94in x 4.53 x 2.00 (404.876mm x 115.062 x 50.8mm) [2366560mm²]
The KW oil cooler actually is 15% smaller, even though it has 3 more rows.

Oil temps
- Even in 65F weather, cruising on the freeway at 65mph in 6th gear without a thermostatic plate with the Setrab 50-920-7612 cooler (the one used in the Jackson Racing kit) resulted in oil temperatures dropping into the 115-120F range. This is *too cold*.
- Oil being tested to -40F has nothing to do with proper oil temps for this engine.
- The Jackson Racing oil cooler regulates temperatures to prevent the oil from getting too cold.
- Feel free to read the links at https://www.google.com/search?q=oil+temps+too+cold

Piping diameter
- Did you know the FA20DIT charge pip diameter is SMALLER? Now why would this be? Smaller diameter means higher air flow velocity going into the engine.
- The larger intercooler and piping diameter does not show any difference on a dyno between the two kits.

Intake
- The Jackson Racing kit pulls air from the exact same location as stock. The air that would normally be going into the stock intake box... flows right to where the filter is located.
- The Kraftwerks kit puts the filter where the entry for the stock intake tubing is located.

Why is this even a comparison between the two kits? The OP asked a completely different question...

[Sellout]

we will be seeking approval for the C30 and the C38 blowers.

Oh really now? That's the best news I've heard since I bought this car...

- The larger intercooler and piping diameter does not show any difference on a dyno between the two kits.

On a dyno between the two kits when BOTH have headers or have stock manifolds? I don't actually remember ever seeing a comparison between these kits where the two cars were modified the same way. (I'll go look for that old supercharger comparison thread now...)

Edit: Duh it's stickied. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55705 JR kit has no cats and the KW kit has two. Your claim that the piping shows no benefit when you're comparing to a vehicle that has 6 more horsepower and two less catalytic convertors is weak.

Did you know the FA20DIT charge pip diameter is SMALLER? Now why would this be?

I bet it has absolutely nothing to do with minimizing turbo lag in that non-performance application.

[Squishy]

At the end of the day I have a KW kit, JR kit is not much different - has pros and cons. No kit I have ever found was perfect.

KW had a divorced belt which for a DD is more important to me - again pros and cons as each person will need different things.

Many have brought up the pros and cons of this and its rival kit, and I think it should be more than enough to go make a decision. Each kit has a good amount of support from vendors and customer testimony which shows that the aftermarket community is alive and well.

I think an oil cooler kit is a very important choice with either FI kit. PLAN for one. Both will benefit from higher flowing headers and front pipe high flow cat and exhaust but the gains from this are more $$ than gain in power. I think ultimately it comes down to what you are comfortable with along with tuner - do you need CARB certification? I am guessing no as to your location so it ends up which tuner are you going to go with or do you feel comfortable with email tunes.

If this is not enough information yet, I suggest you go search the wealth of posts already on these two kits and take to PM with some vendors to see who will treat you right or have a good package deal. You are the customer after all and you always win when there is competition.

[D K]

Originally Posted by Squishy

At the end of the day I have a KW kit, JR kit is not much different - has pros and cons. No kit I have ever found was perfect.

Amen!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Sellout

I bet it has absolutely nothing to do with minimizing turbo lag in that non-performance application.

WRX?

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'll just stick to the facts, without any opinions or editorial...
Piping diameter
- Did you know the FA20DIT charge pip diameter is SMALLER? Now why would this be? Smaller diameter means higher air flow velocity going into the engine.
- The larger intercooler and piping diameter does not show any difference on a dyno between the two kits.

Intake
- The Jackson Racing kit pulls air from the exact same location as stock. The air that would normally be going into the stock intake box... flows right to where the filter is located.
- The Kraftwerks kit puts the filter where the entry for the stock intake tubing is located.

Why is this even a comparison between the two kits? The OP asked a completely different question...

The piping will show less difference at the lower flowing base configs on both the kW and JR kit.....as airflow increases you WILL see a difference....now of course this is a theoretical scenario we will never know the answer to because the fact is that JR kit cannot use the big blower or have a small pulley option for the current C30 charger.....I am curious why you refuse to address the existence of this big purple elephant in the room...feel free to give us 'editorial' because inquiring minds want to know

As for the cold air ....one kit draws it's air completely from a cold air pocket located in front of the radiator....the other kit draws air from behind the radiator inside the engine bay where some of the cold air can pass through a 2"x 6" hole and mix with the hot air in the engine bay before being drawn into the filter....how one can spin these two obviously different configurations as the same and keep a straight face is beyond me.

Finally, this thread became a comparison of the two kits because that's where the JR minions chose to take it. We can argue and spin the pluses and minuses of the little details until we're blue in the face....but one thing that JR folks refuse to address is the JR kits lack of clear path for power upgrade aka the big purple elephant in the room.

There are reasons why the top brz tuners prefer the KW kit over other SC kits and those are the same reasons the KW kit is outselling the JR kit by a large margin

[OICU812]

Originally Posted by gmsii

There are reasons why the top brz tuners prefer the KW kit over other SC kits and those are the same reasons the KW kit is outselling the JR kit by a large margin

Pissing match aside I'd be very curious to see those numbers? Obviously someone has em if they know A is outselling B? (By a large margin)

[CSG Mike]

Editorial/speculation highlighted in Bold. Facts in Italics.

Originally Posted by gmsii

The piping will show less difference at the lower flowing base configs on both the kW and JR kit.....as airflow increases you WILL see a difference....now of course this is a theoretical scenario we will never know the answer to because the fact is that JR kit cannot use the big blower or have a small pulley option for the current C30 charger.....I am curious why you refuse to address the existence of this big purple elephant in the room...feel free to give us 'editorial' because inquiring minds want to know

See above. Zero difference is certainly less difference.

Originally Posted by gmsii

As for the cold air ....one kit draws it's air completely from a cold air pocket located in front of the radiator....the other kit draws air from behind the radiator inside the engine bay where some of the cold air can pass through a 2"x 6" hole and mix with the hot air in the engine bay before being drawn into the filter....how one can spin these two obviously different configurations as the same and keep a straight face is beyond me.

We've posted irrefutable evidence, posting what the ECU sees, comparing IAT with AAT. It's *proven* that there is no downside to the intake location. When's the last time Kraftwerks has posted emperical evidence from testing, other than dyno plots?

Originally Posted by gmsii

Finally, this thread became a comparison of the two kits because that's where the JR minions chose to take it. We can argue and spin the pluses and minuses of the little details until we're blue in the face....but one thing that JR folks refuse to address is the JR kits lack of clear path for power upgrade aka the big purple elephant in the room.

Perhaps they prefer to release fully baked products? Instead of the ongoing R&D that Kraftwerks has, Jackson Racing has a history of just releasing products when they're ready.

Originally Posted by gmsii

There are reasons why the top brz tuners prefer the KW kit over other SC kits and those are the same reasons the KW kit is outselling the JR kit by a large margin

I'd love to see those numbers too... as well as tuners going on record. @DeliciousTuning? @moto-east? @Prime Motoring?



@gmsii: I'd love to test your kit at the track. I've yet to have had any Kraftwerks kit owners to volunteer their car for data gathering at the track. We've had plenty of Innovate, Vortech, and Jackson Racing kit owners volunteer, as well as various turbo kits. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to volunteer your shop car for some data to be gathered, so that we can enlighten everyone? @robispec and @sales@delicioustuning.com, as well as countless forum owners have had no issue having me drive their cars.

For the record, none of the cars that participate/compete in the 86 CUP or 86 Challenge run the Kraftwerks kit. There are, however, Innovate, Jackson Racing, Vortech, Greddy, Ptuning, and JDL FI cars.

[loogs]

we can really close this thread as ive already made up my mind but i want to ask this to @gmsii and all the KW owners, is there any documented proof of the KW kit being put through the test on the track or under heavy driving conditions? i want to know that the company owns the 86, that theyve driven it everyday, on the track, have put miles on the car with the kit before releasing it to the public and have beaten the piss out of it. if that evidence exists, then forgive me for not seeing it yet. please link it here.

also, and this is why i dont want to do turbo, why is it that if i buy a SC kit, do i need the option to "upgrade" it down the road? i dont give a shit about that at all. im buying something cause its doing something specific. its providing me with that little extra that i want. that extra 80-100 hp that im craving. why would i then turn around a year or so later and say, i need more? IMO thats just stupid. so for me, that is completely irrelevant.

again thanks everyone for their input. this can be put to rest once i see the evidence of KW/ Skunk, doing serious testing on the 86 platform with their kit

Thanks

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by loogs

we can really close this thread as ive already made up my mind but i want to ask this to @gmsii and all the KW owners, is there any documented proof of the KW kit being put through the test on the track or under heavy driving conditions? i want to know that the company owns the 86, that theyve driven it everyday, on the track, have put miles on the car with the kit before releasing it to the public and have beaten the piss out of it. if that evidence exists, then forgive me for not seeing it yet. please link it here.

also, and this is why i dont want to do turbo, why is it that if i buy a SC kit, do i need the option to "upgrade" it down the road? i dont give a shit about that at all. im buying something cause its doing something specific. its providing me with that little extra that i want. that extra 80-100 hp that im craving. why would i then turn around a year or so later and say, i need more? IMO thats just stupid. so for me, that is completely irrelevant.

again thanks everyone for their input. this can be put to rest once i see the evidence of KW/ Skunk, doing serious testing on the 86 platform with their kit

Thanks

I think a lot of people would disagree with you on the 'stupidity' of upgradeability, but regarding the thread I totally agree with you - this thread has turned into a giant pissing match. Not enough people with KW system have chimed in, way too many JR.

[loogs]

i cant quote?

all im saying is that for me, the ability to upgrade is pointless. thats just me. didnt mean to say that its stupid. its just not something i care about. but i hear you

[post_break]

I have the KW kit. Minor hiccups installing due to a missing bolt I was able to find at home depot. Delicious tune. The car drives great and has loads of power. I plan on tracking it once the temps get down, it's way too hot in texas right now.

I won't comment on other kits. I will say that installing this was very straight forward. I didn't have any bumper issues, everything just kind of went into place. Now that I've installed it I could do it again very fast. Purging the blower was the biggest headache but knowing what I know now I'd be able to do it much easier without flooding it.

I'd say ignore the JR folks. You pick either JR or KW based on a couple of things. Do you want a shared belt with no upgrade path other than pulleys, or do you want separate belts with the option to go bigger. If you don't plan on going bigger, and you don't mind shared belts then both kits are pretty much the same in my book. But please don't get into a pissing match with that statement...

For me I like the separate belt. I like the ability to cut the belt off, flash an NA tune, and limp home. What I don't like is the stupid clearance by the oil filter making it hard to fit an oil cooler. That being said I think kraftwerks takes care of their customers. I can't comment on JR because I have never dealt with them.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by loogs

i cant quote?

all im saying is that for me, the ability to upgrade is pointless. thats just me. didnt mean to say that its stupid. its just not something i care about. but i hear you

Oh I hear you Personally I'm in the same boat, 260-280 whp would be plenty for me, probably get me in a lot of trouble, just saying the power lovers definitely are known to upgrade